canon versus non-canon in a non-supported game

[Legbreaker]

RS, what you have shown us so far is very well done and you have justified every change you have made. When others have commented you have calmly (and even gratefully) taken it on board and where necessary made adjustments or reassessed your ideas and assumptions.
For me it's a pleasure to read every word.

You are right in saying you have never forced your views on anyone here, effectively detailing your reasons for diverging from the original book and even incorporating some of it into your own work. To me, what you have done, and continue to do is the right way to go about developing and presenting an alternative. I look forward to the day you combine it all into one large publication and call it complete (doubtful you'll ever be able to stop tinkering though!)

[Tegyrius]

Speaking as one of the aforementioned developers (thanks, Leg!), I will say that there is a wide spectrum of critical behavior in gamer responses to published material. At one end, you have a subject matter expert who puts forth a well-reasoned analysis of a work's shortcomings and offers some solid alternatives. At the other end, you have the semi-literate, hebephrenic scrawlings of a fan (short for "fanatic," let's not forget) whose offense stems from the work's contradiction of his own uninformed opinion of the way "things ought to be," which may involve a vast body of "unpublished supplements" that would induce retinal hemorrhaging in any real author who chanced to lay his gaze upon them.

The former sometimes gets you hired as a freelancer if you can write and hit deadlines... and if the company still exists. The latter makes us sit around and cry bitter, bitter tears into the cheap beer that is all we can afford to use to drown our sorrows.

ETA: I became too enamored of my own vocabulary (I so rarely get to deploy "hebephrenic" - thanks, Justin Achilli!) and forgot to make the point for which I originally hit "Reply." As a game designer (if I am allowed to lay claim to that title), few things other than a paycheck please me more than seeing fans take my work and use it as a starting point for things I never would've thought to do. If I wanted to produce pure shining material unbesmirched by the hands of fans, I'd be writing teen fiction and threatening lawsuits over derivative fanfic. Instead, I create tools that other people can use to tell stories. For T2k, Paul Mulcahy's work stands out to me as a shining example of awesome fan support - Paul is the Jane's of T2k and has compiled a library of game material that few publishers would ever be able to produce as a commercial product. For 2013, one of my favorite fan threads in the 93GS forum was Traject0ry's Karelia Regain material, because it was a look at a corner of the world that I never would've thought to examine in enough detail to use as a campaign setting.

- C.

[95th Rifleman]

Allot of it comes down to how much you deviate.

A few small changes, like having the Ghurkas stationed in the Uk assighned to a forward brigade, add variety and spice to the game.

Huge changes, like the 5th's push succeeding and breaking the WP line, take things too far.

At the end of the day, discussion is all well and good. But it's so very important to realise that all we have are personal opinions and if others don't agree then that doesn't make them wrong and it doesn't make you right.

We must, as rational adults, accept that everyone is entitled to what they think and say. If disagreements occur, we have an obligation to discuss things calmly and accept sometimes the agreement to disagree.

As mentioned, this game has small, but loyal following. Many of us put so much effort into keeping this game alive within our various gaming communities that it can breed a certain sense of fanaticism I think. Those of us who keep T2k alive are so very passionate, it's heart warming but can be a trifle dangerous in these discussions as we allow our passion to ovride reason and rationality.

[Medic]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

For 2013, one of my favorite fan threads in the 93GS forum was Traject0ry's Karelia Regain material, because it was a look at a corner of the world that I never would've thought to examine in enough detail to use as a campaign setting.

On that note, you wouldn't happen to have that particular thread saved, would you?

As for the original topic - I do respect the canon material, but as said earlier, it is just the foundation to build upon. What I loved about the 2013's timeline was the purposedly planted inaccuracy (for the lack of better words) on operations around the globe that gives the individual GM a wide array of possibilities to take his campaign to practically any wanted direction. And of course, the lurkers on this forum being from an array of countries, it makes us all an expert on our own right, when it comes to questions dealing with our own native countries. Along with other things (yes, I'm planning on something again), I'm probably going to write some sort of a Twilight:2000/2013 Guide to Finland when time permits.

While we all strive to portray things as accurately as possible, I believe, in most cases we do fall in to being victims of our own national prides at times. Indeed, who wouldn't want to see his own country emerge out of the ashes of war as the prime rebuilder of humanity? It is only human to think, realistic or not, the armed forces of your own particular nation are those more far better and more powerful when compared to those of the usual nemesis.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Medic

On that note, you wouldn't happen o have that particular thread saved, would you?

I do!

... somewhere. I'll need to go hunting for it.

- C.

[Medic]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I do!

... somewhere. I'll need to go hunting for it.

- C.

And the children clapped their big hairy hands.

[Raellus]

I think that some people selectively cherrypick from canon to support their version of the T2KU and that, to me, is disingenuous and hypocritical. In other words, if something in the published canon supports their T2K worldview, they'll happily point it out and say "See, canon backs me up." At the same time, if something in canon doesn't support their T2K worldview, they'll loudly proclaim how canon got it all wrong and should be heavily revised or even chucked out the window all together.

This reminds me of what a lot of religious fundamentalists do and it drives me nuts.

The canon is a baseline. It's not scripture. If you want to deviate from canon, that's fine. I enjoy reading peoples' various takes on the T2KU, even if I don't agree with them. What bothers me is when people start making value judgments about published or homebrewed material or use canon as a blunt instrument with which to bash others' work. No one follows canon to the letter so to criticize others' work as "non-canonical" is hypocritical. Canon is a framework. We can add what we like and change what we don't. Let's not use canon as a weapon.

[Webstral]

Leg, thanks for the good word.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Let's not use canon as a weapon.

A worthy suggestion; no pun intended.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Medic

While we all strive to portray things as accurately as possible, I believe, in most cases we do fall in to being victims of our own national prides at times. Indeed, who wouldn't want to see his own country emerge out of the ashes of war as the prime rebuilder of humanity? It is only human to think, realistic or not, the armed forces of your own particular nation are those more far better and more powerful when compared to those of the usual nemesis.

Ironicly my group is rather the opposite, we tend to make allot out of the UK being the little guy, poorly equipped and supplied, having to make do with what we can find and use.

Historicly the British have always been the underdog, the stubborn little bastards who have no business doing well or winning. We succeed despite our failings, almost because of them. let us not forget in WW2 while everyone else where developing man-portable, anti-tank rockets we had a spring loaded monster with no range and was hardy to reload than a freaking crossbow!

Our games focus allot on how things have gone to hell and there is no higher organisation or control. We don't deviate from the post-apocalyptic side of T2k, it's what appeals to us.

[simonmark6]

Apart from the hundred years where we effectively ruled the world...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

let us not forget in WW2 while everyone else where developing man-portable, anti-tank rockets we had a spring loaded monster with no range and was hardy to reload than a freaking crossbow!

Yes, but it had no launch signature, and it's hollow-charge warhead was more effective (when it hit) than anything until the Panzerschreck was created. One was used to destroy a Panzer IV attempting to cross Pegasus bridge in the early hours of June 6th 1944, blocking further armor advances for a while.

[B.T.]

Maybe I should make one thing clear:

I am one of those, who "critizised" the original game (and it's makers/inventors/publishers) a few days ago: I said, I'd not buy the idea of Greek and Italy uniting against NATO. And one of the weak points in the written history of T2k - IMHO - is the idea, that WW III begins with a German invasion of Poland. In my personal view this was not to happen.
But:
I take the things, written in the rules book as they are, because I like to play a game (That Game). It is escapist entertainment. The game does not portray the real world, but it takes elements of the real history and puts them together in a different way, to give the background for a game!

One of the problems with all RPG (=Role Playing Games , not Rocket Propelled Grenades) that continously write their history forth, is the possible establishment of a paradox. Just like Olefin mentioned in his opening post, the players may run an adventure in a way, that was not intended. And the whole setup of the modules cannot work the way, they were planned.

The only RPG that I know, that used to do this in different way, was actually Hârnmaster. The makers discribed a world up to a certain point in time. And everything that happened afterwards, was not touched by published materials. (Well, that's what I learned about the first edition of Hârnmaster, and I don't even know, If Columbia changed that, or if there has ever been a second edition. Maybe Targan can provide some insight here)

So: From my very personal point of view I can say, that I really like the efforts of several members, to change/add things. Or write their own personal stories, that differ from canon. What I like, can be of great value, because it gives me insights or new ideas, that may change my game. If someone writes something, that does not fit to my perception of the T2k universe - so what? I don't have to use it.

When Legbreaker says, canon should be a safe point, he's right! But I, for myself, have the chance to stick to canon, or not. (No contradiction here, Legbreaker. I think, up to now I stick to canon, but if I would not, that would be my personal affair. Here on the board; canon should be accepted, or people should clearly say: "What follows differs from canon ...")

And if someone asks for input or criticism, we should be able (and adult enough) to give a helping hand. If someone wants to add further detail, that does not interfere with canon, but is not mentioned in canon, it is a useful thing, to discuss, if those alterations could interfere with published material.

And, by the way: We all are here, because we like one of the T2k incarnations. That is, what we have all in common. Maybe we should bear that in mind and keep it friendly.

Hm, I hope, you understand what I'm trying to say. It is a touchy subject and I'm not so convinced of may LNG: English skill. As always: no offense intended!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

B.T., the World of Greyhawk setting for Advanced D&D did that with its timeline, too. There's a rich background of political events that unfold not unlike a "Twilight:2000" for a fantasy world (two huge empires unleash terrible weapons and utterly destroy one another, leaving a broken world of imperial city-states peopled by desperate men and women scavenging the ruins for supplies, magic items and so on, hiring themselves out as mercenaries, etc.)

It brought the "game clock" from thousands of years in the past to "Common Year" 576 and left the rest up to the DM...