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  #1  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:01 PM
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Webstral Webstral is offline
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My impression of the US Army Vehicle Guide and its companions is to provide players with a point of reference. We know what the division looked like on paper at the start of the war. One need only leaf through the unit histories to see how much that all changed.

Players like to ask questions like "Did this unit belonging to this division have M1A1 tanks?" We ask questions about what kinds of equipment are likely to have been in formations like 92nd Infantry Division. I don't see this information as delimiting at all. Players also like to come up with good stories for why unlikely events occur. I have light armor and howitzers belonging to an MI brigade in southern Arizona, a force of light infantry operating under the command of the US Coast Guard in northern New England, BTR-80A operated by Japanese-styled motorized marauders in Nevada, an an ad hoc riverine force operating in San Francisco Bay and the Sacramento River in my take on the Twilight: 2000 universe. I have used information in the various sourcebooks as a starting point for my story-telling, not an end-point.
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:30 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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All kinds of things could have happened, especially late in the war. A shipment of Sheridans meant to go the RDF gets sent to Texas instead when a desperate commander there needs some kind of armor.

Captured Soviet equipment that was sent home for analysis gets issued out because its better than nothing or gets used by units in the field in Europe, the US or Iran (and the guides point to that happening in the NATO, Soviet and US field guides)
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:24 AM
95th Rifleman 95th Rifleman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
All kinds of things could have happened, especially late in the war. A shipment of Sheridans meant to go the RDF gets sent to Texas instead when a desperate commander there needs some kind of armor.

Captured Soviet equipment that was sent home for analysis gets issued out because its better than nothing or gets used by units in the field in Europe, the US or Iran (and the guides point to that happening in the NATO, Soviet and US field guides)
Yeah, we had a friendly-fire scenario last week along these lines. My group encountered a BMP2 leading a small truck convoy.

The guys had been getting a bit gung-ho lately, shooting without asking questions, thy set up and ambush and disabled the BMP only to find that the convoy comprised Americans and the BMP was captured and put into service.

This led to an interesting encounter with a bunch of well armed and very pissed off friendlies.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webstral View Post
My impression of the US Army Vehicle Guide and its companions is to provide players with a point of reference. We know what the division looked like on paper at the start of the war. One need only leaf through the unit histories to see how much that all changed.
Absolutely correct. We can also assume unit structure may alter on almost a weekly basis to respond to losses, or captured equipment and supplies.
Therefore, the papers a group capture/sneaks a look at in the commanders HQ tent may well be out of date already.

Another idea might be an enemy deception plan - allowing the enemy to "capture" intelligence on their numbers, organisation, etc which is radically different to reality in order to achieve some unspecified goal (such as cause their opponents to erroneously redeploy their forces).
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:36 AM
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I agree things like this add to the atmosphere of the game.

The guys that came up with the British Army order of battle on the etranger website obviously thought along the lines of replacing Regiments / Battalions with composite Battlegroups:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dh...al/BritA2K.htm

I also agree that it seems pointless for Armoured Regiments to keep multiple Squadrons when their numbers of tanks are lucky to be in double figures, so having a Regiment consisting of a CVR(T) Squadron, an MBT Squadron, and an HQ / Support Squadron seems like a very sensible option.

My only query about consolidation into Battlegroups where the Regimental / Battalion identity is lost is that this would tend to go against the British Regimental system and the tradition contained within. One could argue about how much relevance tradition would have on the battlefields of Europe in the year 2000, but it is possible it could affect morale. So I’d be inclined to suggest that an effort would be made to retain Regimental identities even if Armoured Regiments are effectively single Squadrons and Battalions are single Companies. For example etranger orbat has a Battle Group “White Rhino” made up of elements of three Armoured Regiments and three Infantry Battalions, so could in theory look like this

1 x Armoured Regiment
Composite HQ Squadron
4/7th Royal Dragoon Guards Squadron (MBT)
Queens Own Hussars Squadron (MBT)
17th / 21st Lancers Squadron (CVR(T))

All MBT's are thus concentrated in two Squadrons, so if the 17th / 21st Lancers did have any operational they would hand them over to the other two Squadrons (receiving any CVR(T)'s they had in return). If there aren't enough MBT's to equip two Squadrons then one Squadron could perhaps convert to horse cavalry instead.

1 x Infantry Battalion
Composite HQ Company
Queens Company
Devonshire & Dorset Company
Staffordshire Company

Again, you could consolidate any APC's / IFV's in one Company (probably the Company that had the most operational vehicles to start with).

From a US point of view, some time ago a forum member called Graebarde posted an order of battle for a reorganised 5th Division prior to the summer offensive. I'm at work at the moment but will post it when I get home (unless anyone else has a copy handy) as some people may not have seen it and may be interested in it.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:09 AM
James Langham James Langham is offline
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I agree that regimental identity is important and every effort will be made to maintain it.

I actually did a brief write up of 7th Armoured a while back - if you do a search you will find it.

I'm still working on expanding the British MBT article but here is the (expanded) organizational part.

Organisation

British tank units come from three main sources, the Royal Tank Regiment, the cavalry and the yeomanry. In addition there was also the small Household Cavalry which in addition to it's horsed ceremonial role also formed two recce units. Whilst all (excepting the Household Cavalry) were theoretically part of the (administrative) Royal Armoured Corps, all units placed the emphasis on their regimental identity. The Household Cavalry is technically a Corps in its own right but for all practical purposes acted as part of the Royal Armoured Corps in wartime).

The Royal Tank Regiment was the youngest of the armoured units being established from the Heavy Branch of the Machine Gun Corps in the First World War. The Royal Tank Regiment battalions are composed only of heavy tank units and there were no Territorial Army units. 1RTR is unique among non-Scottish, Gurkha and Irish units in the British Army for having a pipe band.

The cavalry regiments made up a substantial part of the British tank unit strength. These were horsed cavalry that had converted to a mechanised role (completing this during World War Two). These could be found operating either as heavy tank units or in a reconnaissance role using light tanks (often but not always based around historical roles). In the 1980s and 1990s many swapped between these roles on a seemingly arbitrary series of re-rollings.

The yeomanry units were composed of Territorial Army cavalry units. These operated only in a reconnaissance role with most being equipped with wheeled vehicles such as the Fox or Land Rover.

As the war progressed it was planned that a number of infantry units were to be re-rolled as tank units. These plans were only ever implemented in a limited way with 2nd Bn Coldstream Guards and 2nd Bn Scots Guards, both of whom converted to armoured battalions using Chieftain tanks drawn from war reserves. These both adopted the all seeing eye of the Guards Armoured Brigade of World War Two. This often causes confusion on identifying vehicles. Infantry insignia was retained. Despite being deeply unpopular with the units concerned, plans were made to convert further battalions. These plans to increase the armoured strength using infantry conversions were stopped as numbers of vehicles held in storage were rapidly being depleted as battlefield replacements.

In BAOR prior to the start of the war, the organisation of the heavier tank units was based around the Type 57 organisation introduced in 1984. In this a regiment (full strength 44 officers and 539 other ranks) was made up as follows:

Regimental HQ
Regimental HQ section
1 x MBT
3 x Sultan
1 x Spartan
3 x Ferret
1 x Land Rover FFR
Recce troop
8 x Scorpion (some replaced by Sabre from 1994-1995 and Scimitar from 1995)
Tank destroyer troop
2 x Ferret
9 x Striker
2 x 4ton truck
2 x Land Rover (REME)
HQ Squadron
6 x Land Rover FFR
2 x Land Rover
1 x 1 ton Land Rover
10 x 4 ton trucks
2 x stalwart or 4 ton trucks
1 x FV432 Ambulance
Light Aid (LAD) Detachment – REME
1 x armoured recovery vehicle
1 x FV432
1 x Land Rover
1 x Sampson
4 x Tank squadrons each
HQ Section
2 x MBT
1 x Ferret
1 x Land Rover
Admin troop
1 x Land Rover FFR
1 x Land Rover
3 x Stalwart or 4 ton trucks
1 x 4 ton truck
FV432 Ambulance
REME Section
1 x FV432
1 x FV434
1 x Recovery vehicle
4 troops each with
3 x MBT

As the Challenger I came into service, these were initially assigned to Type 43 units that had an identical organisation except there were only 3 tank squadrons. Most of the Type 43 units in BAOR were upgraded in the build up to war to Type 57 at least initially until loses resulted in the Type 43 becoming the standard from 1st January 1998 (even then few units reached this level of equipment). From 7th November 1998 the following organisation (Type 20) became the official structure of a British armoured regiment:

Regimental HQ
Regimental HQ section
2 x Sultan
1 x Spartan (defence section)
2 x Ferret
2 x Land Rover FFR
Tank destroyer troop
1 x Land Rover FFR – occasionally Ferret or Spartan
6 x Striker – sometimes replaced with Spartan with Milan or dismount-able Milan teams
2 x 4ton truck
HQ Squadron
6 x Land Rover FFR
2 x Land Rover
1 x 1 ton Land Rover
10 x 4 ton trucks
2 x stalwart or 4 ton trucks
3 x Land Rover Ambulance
Light Aid (LAD) Detachment – REME
1 x armoured recovery vehicle
3 x FV434 or Sampson (minimum 1 FV434)
2 x Land Rover
2 x Tank squadrons each
HQ Section
1 x MBT
1 x Land Rover or Spartan or Sultan
Admin troop
1 x Land Rover FFR
1 x Land Rover
3 x Stalwart or 4 ton trucks
3 troops each with
3 x MBT
1 x Recce tank squadron – often the troops were dispersed to the tank squadrons with each squadron reinforcing another squadron. Some units instead had two Scimitars/Scorpions/Sabres with 1 Spartan in each troop.
HQ Section
1 x Land Rover or Spartan or Sultan
Admin troop
1 x Land Rover FFR
1 x Land Rover
2 x Stalwart or 4 ton trucks
2 troops each with
3 x Scorpion/Scimitar/Sabre (occasionally Fox) – often mixed types
1 troops
3 x Spartan

From 1st January 2002 the organisation changed again depending on type. Challenger units were equipped as follows (on paper at least):

Regimental HQ
Regimental HQ section
2 x Sultan
1 x Spartan (defence section)
2 x Land Rover FFR
HQ Squadron
4 x Land Rover FFR
4 x Land Rover
1 x 1 ton Land Rover
10 x 4 ton trucks
2 x stalwart or 4 ton trucks
3 x Land Rover Ambulance
Light Aid (LAD) Detachment – REME
1 x armoured recovery vehicle
3 x FV434 or Sampson (minimum 1 FV434)
2 x Land Rover
2 x Heavy tank squadrons each
HQ Section
2 x MBT
1 x Land Rover or Spartan or Sultan
Admin troop
1 x Land Rover FFR
1 x Land Rover
3 x Stalwart or 4 ton trucks
3 troops each with
4 x MBT
1 x Light tank squadron
HQ Section
1 x Land Rover or Spartan or Sultan
Admin troop
1 x Land Rover FFR
1 x Land Rover
2 x Stalwart or 4 ton trucks
3 troops each with
3 x Scorpion/Scimitar/Sabre (occasionally Fox) – often mixed
1 x Recce squadron
HQ Section
1 x Land Rover or Spartan or Sultan (usually Land Rover)
Admin troop
1 x Land Rover FFR
1 x Land Rover
2 x Stalwart or 4 ton trucks
2 light recce troops each with
4 x Land Rover
1 light recce troops each with
4 x Spartan

Occasionally the light armour or recce squadrons were replaced by cavalry but this was usually restricted to the light role regiments.

In many ways this organisation reflected what was already happening with the shortage of tanks. Chieftain units usually retained the Type 20 organisation but reduced the number of tank squadrons to one.
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  #7  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:52 AM
95th Rifleman 95th Rifleman is offline
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My group keep their personal regimental identities alive, we had a very moving game a while back when a PC died and at his funeral one of our lads (playing an Pioneer) created a cross for his grave with the guy's cap badge incorporated in the centre, was a very moving scene.

However the loss of regimental identity is something of a reality in peacetime let alone in war, even today with almagamations. The Rifles and the Royal Regiment of Scotland being two clear, lamented, examples.

I agree it undermines one of the most important aspects of the British army, however I think this is sort of the point of Twilight 2000 and it's one of the themes I enjoy most. Things have gone to total hell, what we knew, what was comfortale has changed and individual PCs are left with the choice of embracing these changes or trying to hold on to what was past. How players handle this aspectis one of the most fascinating parts of GMing a game of T2k for me.

I have your 7th armoured article saved in my T2k file james ad I do enjoy it, as I enjoy all your articles.
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  #8  
Old 04-09-2012, 08:56 AM
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Ok, home now...attached Graebarde's 5th Division reorganisation. It has been posted here before, but may be of interest to those who haven't seen it before.
Attached Files
File Type: doc 5th Dvn reorganisation.doc (43.0 KB, 144 views)
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  #9  
Old 04-09-2012, 03:57 PM
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Great work, James! Whether I find a use for your work or not, I appreciate the time and effort that go into making that product.
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