Canon module omissions - RDF module

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yes, it's possible such a ship existed, however the F-14s and other naval aircraft could just as easily have been flown in from other theatres using the last of the available avgas there. Better to send all your planes and pilots to where the fuel is than have them sit unused in Germany or Korea on the off chance of capturing a small supply to allow them an hour or two in the air.

It's possible that if any USN aircraft carriers were lost in the Eastern med their aircraft could have found their way to RAF Akrotiri on Cyprus. From Cyprus it's a reasonably short hop to the Gulf.

[Olefin]

there would have been at least one carrier in the IO during the war - and those ships most likely are what escorted the Marines and the rest of the RDF to the Gulf - i.e. they didnt get there by accident, they are what brought them there

Especially as the carrier is a Marine assault carrier and the Salem would be used as a gunfire support ship for a Marine landing.

There is no way the US wouldnt have had a CV or CVN there - not with a mid 90's start to the war.

And the mix of planes in the provisional squadron screams "flown off either a crippled or lost carrier". The F-14D is the best clue - there were only three carriers that flew them at that time - Stennis, TR and if I remember correctly one CV.

If you read the RDF they arrived before the nuking and before the big fleet battles in the Atlantic - so they arent remnants sent after those battles but instead escorts and assigned ships sent before they occurred. I.e. the 24th ID arrived in March of 1997 before the last remaining fleet was shattered in the timeline and the Marines arrived in June of 97 just about the time that the last big fleet battle was occuring.

so that leaves out those ships (or at least most of them) being shattered fleet units from the Atlantic -they would have been dedicated escorts and fire support ships.

Obviously they have taken losses - I doubt that two Marine Divisions arrived on the only the USS Nashville LPD-13 and the USS Belleau Wood LHA-3.

[Legbreaker]

Why can't any of the RDF ships be from the Atlantic battles? Is it not possible that some, even all of the ships that escorted the troops in 1997 were sunk, redeployed, or otherwise removed from the area. Is it not possible that one or more of the RDF ships were shifted into the area between June 1997 and July 2000?
I'm not saying that any of them are, just that's it's possible since we're not specifically told otherwise. Also, like the aircraft, it makes sense to send your conventionally powered ships to operate in the same area where fuel is available.

It is indeed likely some sort of carrier was initially included to support the landings and following actions, but, as has been noted previously, carriers are big juicy targets for the enemy. There's no reason to believe whatever was there isn't on the bottom due to sabotage, enemy naval action, aerial bombing or any number of a multitude of possibilities.

As I proposed a while back, it's possible the Tarawa was stationed in the gulf until 2000 when it was shifted to Europe to support the Spring Offensive there. It's possible it was one of the ships which carried the initial force of Marines to the area, but it's just as possible it was always in Europe and had elements of the 2nd MARDIV attached.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And the mix of planes in the provisional squadron screams "flown off either a crippled or lost carrier". The F-14D is the best clue - there were only three carriers that flew them at that time - Stennis, TR and if I remember correctly one CV.

Yea, but that was in real life where a total of only 55 F-14Ds were built and the last one was delivered in 1994. In a world where the Cold War never ended, there would be more than that.

Not that real life deployments are binding here, but for those who are curious:
* VF-2 "Bounty Hunters", CVW-2. Deployed on USS Constellation CV-64 May 1994 to June 2003.

* VF-11 "Red Rippers", VW-14. Deployed on USS Carl Vinson CVN-70 February 1994 to November 1996 before converting to F-14Bs.

* VF-31 "Tomcatters", CVW-14. Deployed on USS Carl Vinson CVN-70 February 1994 to November 1996, on USS Abraham Lincoln CVN-72 June 1998 to May 2003, on USS John C. Stennis CVN-74 May to November 2004. Moved to CVW-8 and was on USS Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71 December 2005 to March 2006.

* VF-124 "", PACFLT Readiness Squadron. Small number served briefly.

[Olefin]

Leg in this case canon says differently about those ships being any part of the Kola debacle

the US would never, and I mean never, have sent two divisions of Marines into the Persian Gulf without an escort of some type, let alone all the other forces - for one they would get massacred on the way in without at least anti-air equipped ships - heck one sub could massacre them - and they showed up intact as compared to what happened to what they tried to send to Korea

Also keep in mind that the force that escorted the 24th ID, 6th ACCB, etc.. in March could have been part of the Kola debacle and I have no problems with that

But the Marines showed up and did a forced landing with gunfire support in June at the same time of the Kola disaster - that means those ships had to be there already - no way, even at full speed they make it from the Gulf to Kola in time - and Salem needs escorts with anti-air missiles or she is dead meat too

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the US would never, and I mean never, have sent two divisions of Marines into the Persian Gulf without an escort of some type, let alone all the other forces - for one they would get massacred on the way in without at least anti-air equipped ships

Obviously. Nobody is saying otherwise, however there's no evidence that the ships listed in the RDF Sourcebook are the same ships that where there in 1997.

Originally Posted by Olefin

...and they showed up intact as compared to what happened to what they tried to send to Korea.

Please provide your references. All I can find is that the 16th Regiment of the 6th Marines, came under attack during transit in February 1998. No other Korean theatre units (about 7 Divisions worth) show any evidence of this.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Also keep in mind that the force that escorted the 24th ID, 6th ACCB, etc.. in March could have been part of the Kola debacle and I have no problems with that.

Umm, that's what I've been saying, however further investigation shows this as unlikely as US Marines conducted landing operations from the 4th of June while "naval guns pounded the Soviet positions". Marines were still landing in the latter half of June which reduces the chance of their naval escorts being involved off Kola to virtually nil.

However, none of that means those ships remained in the gulf for the remainder of the war. It's very possible given the destruction of the Nato fleets elsewhere, numerous ships in the middle east had to be redeployed to secure resupply convoys. It's possible only a skeleton force was left in the Gulf in latter 1997 and those ships in the RDF Sourcebook represent ships which have migrated to where the fuel is over a period of several years.

[Olefin]

Possibly the frigates - but Salem and the two landing ships are definitely ones that came with the Marines when they came in 1997.

And the 6th Marine division is what I was referring to - i.e. what happens to a unit that insnt properly escorted into a war zone.

We know that the Salem had to be there June 4, 1997 for instance

On June 4th, the American forces arrived off the coast of Iran.
While US Navy SEALs and Marine Force Recon units executed
sabotage missions, naval guns pounded the Soviet positions.
At dawn, on June 5th, the US Marines began landing operations.

I highly doubt those naval guns were just a bunch of frigates with their one or two guns

We also know the Salem was there for sure in 1997 by this line

By early September (1997), the Soviets had chased the Americans back to their original starting positions. The 24th ID held Bandar-e Khomeyni.
The 101st AAD and the 9th ID held the Bushehr-Ganaveh area
while the 3rd Marine Division held onto Bandar Abbas with
assistance from the USS Salem and her battle group. The only
bright spot came on the 17th of September when the lead
elements of the US 1st Marine Division made contact with the
3rd Marine Division's perimeter around Bandar Abbas.

thus the Salem and her battle group were there in 1997 for the invasion and the gun support in 1997

so those ships in the RDF have probably been there the entire time since I doubt they had the fuel to go all the way back to the US and then come back - especially with the US putting sailing ships into commission in the USN as early as May of 1998 according to A Rock In Troubled Waters to be used as patrol ships

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Possibly the frigates - but Salem and the two landing ships are definitely ones that came with the Marines when they came in 1997.

There's no definitive evidence of those three ships at that time. They could have arrived later.
In fact I'll go further and say the Salem was very unlikely to have been there due to it having been decommissioned in 1959 (and IRL removed from the reserve list in 1991), and the disastrous Kola battles didn't occur until after the June landings. There would be no pressing need to rush an ancient cruiser armed only with guns back into service prior to then.

Originally Posted by Olefin

And the 6th Marine division is what I was referring to - i.e. what happens to a unit that insnt properly escorted into a war zone.

There's more and larger units which were attacked in the Atlantic in early 1997. This was before the Kola battles and the destruction of Nato fleets.

Originally Posted by Olefin

We know that the Salem had to be there June 4, 1997 for instance

No, we don't. We only know naval gunfire was provided, and have been given no indication of it's source.

Originally Posted by Olefin

We also know the Salem was there for sure in 1997 by this line

We only know it was there by September. However, how likely is it that any ship would remain on station for 3 years without returning to home. Even in WWII ships didn't stay away that long.
All we really know is the Salem was there in 1997 and there again in 2000. We have little knowledge of what happened to it in the meantime and no knowledge of it's escorts and how they changed.

Originally Posted by Olefin

I highly doubt those naval guns were just a bunch of frigates with their one or two guns

Agreed, but it is possible. Sustained and accurate 76mm gunfire can be quite effective.

Originally Posted by Olefin

so those ships in the RDF have probably been there the entire time since I doubt they had the fuel to go all the way back to the US and then come back - especially with the US putting sailing ships into commission in the USN as early as May of 1998 according to A Rock In Troubled Waters to be used as patrol ships

It's possible, however it's also highly probable a resupply ship was included in the task force at the time. Additionally, fuel could have been obtained from other ports along the way.
As I've indicated before, any resupply ship would have been a prime target for the enemy and could have been attacked and sunk at any time up until 2000 (although it's likely it would have been hit much earlier due to it's strategic value), which explains why it's not listed in the RDF Sourcebook.