Australia Twilight War & After...

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It's very nice but too much of a "wish-list" I think. While Australia in that timeline might be able to raise the levels of manpower listed here, there's too many vehicles. The mention of the Waler vehicle infers some level of local manufacture and considering the numbers quoted it would be significant manufacture.

I think that the Waler listed here is meant to be the new armoured vehicle from Project Whaler of the mid-1980s. In real-life, bureaucrats and arm-chair strategists decided the Australian Army didn't need a medium/heavy protected troop carrier so the project went nowhere.

I just don't see that with the disorganized state of Australia (and lack of central control) as listed in the main books, that the Federal Government could muster the resources or manpower to supply such a massive army (these figures total about 220,000) in the Twilight War.

Australia actually does have a significant vehicle production capacity. General Dynamics builds the ASLAV in Adelaide and Thales Australia makes the Bushmaster & Hawkei in Bendigo and Wingfield, and there are commercial car and light vehicle factories in Adelaide (GM-Holden), Melbourne (Ford, IVECO, Toyota) and Geelong (Ford), a truck factory in Brisbane (Mack) and engine factories in Geelong (Ford) and Melbourne (GM-Holden).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by RN7

Australia actually does have a significant vehicle production capacity. General Dynamics builds the ASLAV in Adelaide and Thales Australia makes the Bushmaster & Hawkei in Bendigo and Wingfield, and there are commercial car and light vehicle factories in Adelaide (GM-Holden), Melbourne (Ford, IVECO, Toyota) and Geelong (Ford), a truck factory in Brisbane (Mack) and engine factories in Geelong (Ford) and Melbourne (GM-Holden).

You have to take into account that for the armoured vehicles mentioned, the factories were not even in the construction phase let alone ready for production in the time period covered by Twilight: 2000. Also, some of the truck plants mentioned didn't come about until the mid-late 1990s and later and they don't produce a lot of vehicles - production has only risen to 7000/year in the late 2000s.

There was also significant loss of production in the 1990s due to the growth of the Korean car manufacturers and the end of Nissan production in Australia in 1992. The cheaper Korean imports caused major losses for local car makers and they cut the number of models offered and staff numbers to save money. It was widely felt in the early 1990s that the Australia auto industry would be in major decline by the 2000s

We are undoubtedly able to produce armoured vehicles, design studies were conducted in the 1980s when Project Whaler was being examined and they found that we had all the necessary infrastructure but were somewhat lacking in experience.
Having the infrastructure was one thing, political will and military necessity are other things again and at the time the political will was lacking. Nothing was really done to address this until the late 1990s - outside the timeframe of Twilight: 2000.

For example, I believe the ASLAV production in South Australia was begun in the early 2000s. The Global War On Terror gave the Australian Government the political will to invest in these facilities but for the Twilight War, I'd argue that the Australian Government would probably feel insulated from the war in Europe and would not see any urgent need to commence our own armoured vehicle production until the war with Indonesia.

By that time, it would be too late. By 2000, the country as described in the books, is in a state of chaos with significant breakdown of central government. Starting a project to build armoured vehicles would be very much a localized affair suffering all the problems that that would entail. Certainly some projects may have been started in the 1996-2000 period but with the gradual breakdown of central authority, I can't see them having much more than a limited run of vehicles at best.

Small arms, grenades & other explosives, uniforms and light vehicles are another matter again. The infrastructure for these has existed for quite some time but they too would suffer after the breakdown of central authority because their components are often sourced from either outside the nation or in areas within the nation separated by large distances.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

You have to take into account that for the armoured vehicles mentioned, the factories were not even in the construction phase let alone ready for production in the time period covered by Twilight: 2000. Also, some of the truck plants mentioned didn't come about until the mid-late 1990s and later and they don't produce a lot of vehicles - production has only risen to 7000/year in the late 2000s.

I think the plant at Bendigo was around during the Twilight War period and run by ADI Ltd. The Mack truck factory in Wacol QLD was built in 1972 and is now owned by Volvo. Also I think FIAT-IVECO were building trucks and plant machinery in Australia in the 1990s.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

There was also significant loss of production in the 1990s due to the growth of the Korean car manufacturers and the end of Nissan production in Australia in 1992. The cheaper Korean imports caused major losses for local car makers and they cut the number of models offered and staff numbers to save money. It was widely felt in the early 1990s that the Australia auto industry would be in major decline by the 2000s.

Chrysler and the British car makers are long gone but GM Holden and Ford have been in Australia since well before WW2 and are still going strong, in fact they seem to be doing better than the Japanese as Nissan and Mitsubishi are now gone leaving only Toyota.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

We are undoubtedly able to produce armoured vehicles, design studies were conducted in the 1980s when Project Whaler was being examined and they found that we had all the necessary infrastructure but were somewhat lacking in experience.
Having the infrastructure was one thing, political will and military necessity are other things again and at the time the political will was lacking. Nothing was really done to address this until the late 1990s - outside the timeframe of Twilight: 2000.

For example, I believe the ASLAV production in South Australia was begun in the early 2000s. The Global War On Terror gave the Australian Government the political will to invest in these facilities but for the Twilight War, I'd argue that the Australian Government would probably feel insulated from the war in Europe and would not see any urgent need to commence our own armoured vehicle production until the war with Indonesia.

By that time, it would be too late. By 2000, the country as described in the books, is in a state of chaos with significant breakdown of central government. Starting a project to build armoured vehicles would be very much a localized affair suffering all the problems that that would entail. Certainly some projects may have been started in the 1996-2000 period but with the gradual breakdown of central authority, I can't see them having much more than a limited run of vehicles at best.

Small arms, grenades & other explosives, uniforms and light vehicles are another matter again. The infrastructure for these has existed for quite some time but they too would suffer after the breakdown of central authority because their components are often sourced from either outside the nation or in areas within the nation separated by large distances.

Australia's defence industry has certainly been on an upswing since 2000, their even building ships for the US Navy at the moment. Although a lot of the infrastructure is new, a lot of it was also around in the 1990s. Outside of the 2300AD timeline there is little of nothing about what happens in Australia during the Twilight War from canon, so we dont know if it was nuked or how heavily it was nuked. But 2300AD does state that the Australian military survived and took control of the country, and if that is the case then factories that produced its guns, munitions, uniforms and sundaries are likely to have been well defended.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by RN7

Chrysler and the British car makers are long gone but GM Holden and Ford have been in Australia since well before WW2 and are still going strong, in fact they seem to be doing better than the Japanese as Nissan and Mitsubishi are now gone leaving only Toyota.

"Going strong" is an illusion. They're heavily propped up by government (state and federal) financial assistance. It's a vote-buying exercise. Realistically, the Australian car making industry is no longer economically viable in a self-sufficient way.

Originally Posted by RN7

Australia's defence industry has certainly been on an upswing since 2000, their even building ships for the US Navy at the moment. Although a lot of the infrastructure is new, a lot of it was also around in the 1990s. Outside of the 2300AD timeline there is little of nothing about what happens in Australia during the Twilight War from canon, so we dont know if it was nuked or how heavily it was nuked. But 2300AD does state that the Australian military survived and took control of the country, and if that is the case then factories that produced its guns, munitions, uniforms and sundaries are likely to have been well defended.

I suspect there were 4 major factors which led to the US-Australian alliance in 2300. 1) A logical extension of the alliance as it exists in RL now and in the time of the Twilight War; 2) Australia is likely to have become a vital stepping stone in the US Navy's links between the CONUS and the Middle East in the years at the end of and immediately after the Twilight War; 3) Australia has vast natural resources that are relatively easy to get to and far less tapped-out than America's so Australia is likely to have been a major trading partner of the US post-Twilight War (and something of a breadbasket too); and 4) I strongly suspect that Australia was one of those nations lucky enough to have found significant tantalum reserves in its territory, but needed the technological expertise of the US to fully realise tantalum's potential to make those nations with access to it into space-going powers.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Targan

"Going strong" is an illusion. They're heavily propped up by government (state and federal) financial assistance. It's a vote-buying exercise. Realistically, the Australian car making industry is no longer economically viable in a self-sufficient way.

I think every countries car industry is or has been propped up by their government to a varying extent for the reasons you mentioned, usualy because their whoefully innefficient. The French, Germans, Italians and the Japanese have all practised protectionism, subtle or not so subtle. Even truely free-market economies like America and Britain have dabbled in the affairs of their car makers.

[Legbreaker]

The Australian OOB RN7 reposted above is complete rubbish for the reasons others have posted. The "Tasmanian Brigade" as just one example is near impossible! IRL, Tasmania has on paper an infantry Battalion plus a handful of small support units (one artillery battery of just a few 81mm mortars, medical unit, admin and transport (a few trucks). Total manpower right now is about 2-300, with most of them in the infantry "Battalion" (which only has one company with a platoon in Devonport, Launceston and Hobart, the state capital).

The population of the entire state can't support much more than that for long (about 400,000 people) and after the three population centres listed above, the next largest town only has 19,000.

So, a sustainable force of 3,500 in addition to the Tasmanians the writer assigned to his 1st Aus Division? Not a chance!

Also, the 3rd Airborne "Brigade" is nothing more than a Battalion. Last year (2011) it changed from an airborne (Parachute) battalion to only having a "smaller high-readiness Airborne Combat Team". http://www.3rar.com/3rarhistory.html

I believe the original writer may have been confused about what a "Regiment" is in Australia. Basically, regiment is an infantry term. RAR is Royal Australian Regiment, RNSWR is Royal New South Wales Regiment, RQR is Royal Queensland Regiment and so forth. RAR is regular army, the rest are reserve and organised on state lines. The Tasmanians mentioned above IRL are 12/40 Battalion RTR and a part of 9th Brigade, with in turn is a component of 2nd Division.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The Australian OOB RN7 reposted above is complete rubbish for the reasons others have posted. The "Tasmanian Brigade" as just one example is near impossible! IRL, Tasmania has on paper an infantry Battalion plus a handful of small support units (one artillery battery of just a few 81mm mortars, medical unit, admin and transport (a few trucks). Total manpower right now is about 2-300, with most of them in the infantry "Battalion" (which only has one company with a platoon in Devonport, Launceston and Hobart, the state capital).

The population of the entire state can't support much more than that for long (about 400,000 people) and after the three population centres listed above, the next largest town only has 19,000.

So, a sustainable force of 3,500 in addition to the Tasmanians the writer assigned to his 1st Aus Division? Not a chance!

Also, the 3rd Airborne "Brigade" is nothing more than a Battalion. Last year (2011) it changed from an airborne (Parachute) battalion to only having a "smaller high-readiness Airborne Combat Team". http://www.3rar.com/3rarhistory.html

I believe the original writer may have been confused about what a "Regiment" is in Australia. Basically, regiment is an infantry term. RAR is Royal Australian Regiment, RNSWR is Royal New South Wales Regiment, RQR is Royal Queensland Regiment and so forth. RAR is regular army, the rest are reserve and organised on state lines. The Tasmanians mentioned above IRL are 12/40 Battalion RTR and a part of 9th Brigade, with in turn is a component of 2nd Division.

I think Australian in T2K could support an army of no more than four divisions and maybe a few independent units. This would include all the reserves and two of those divisions are going to be light infantry divisions at best.

However in WW2 Australia did actually put together a large army. On paper the Australian Army was very large; two armoured divisons (1, 3) twelve infantry divisions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) of which two were motorised at one time, and two independent armoured brigades. One million Australians served in the armed forces including 727,000 in the army, and 397,000 served overseas. However both of the armoured divsions and five of the infantry divisions never left Australia and were reserve & training units, three of the active infantry divisions (3, 5, 11) were formed from militia and the 8th Infantry Division surrendered to the Japanese in Malaya in 1942 and was never reformed.