US Navy Ships of the Twilight War

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

The one thing that I dont agree with is how fast the 49th's tank strength went down - the Mexicans werent attacking them and neither were the Russians.

Don't forget there's a very strong expansionist NA presence, with airpower just over the state border in the Ozarks. Not to mention the probability of desertions. It's also probable the 49th contains NA sympathisers and agents (just like all US units) which will be willing, and able to worth from within to further the NA's aims.

[Olefin]

I am ignoring Howling Wilderness as to how it affects the US military dispositions in some areas - for instance the 90th Corps - for one if it is pivotal to MilGov then why no new troops from the 43000 that landed in Norfolk? A bunch of troops would have gone there for sure - as it said those oil assets were critical for MilGov.

Now what it says about what happened in NE - that is very believeable with the picture that Last Submarine painted - frankly MilGov authority falling apart there is not only believeable but inevitable with only that one unit there.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't forget there's a very strong expansionist NA presence, with airpower just over the state border in the Ozarks. Not to mention the probability of desertions. It's also probable the 49th contains NA sympathisers and agents (just like all US units) which will be willing, and able to worth from within to further the NA's aims.

This I am gonna have to disagree: While on the whole, there might be something to what you say, and in some cases be spot on, this a is a case where your knowledge base puts you in the position I would be in if I was talking about things certain Aussie units would or wouldn't do.

The 49th is a Texan Unit. Not Texan as in, Based out of, but made up of Texans who view the Division as part of the greater whole of the US Army System only because they have to be - if they had their way (And the money to pay for it all) they would be a pure Texan Militia under no one's control other than the Governor. They believe they are the successors of all the Texan Units that date all the way back to when Texas was its own country, and before. And not as a Eastern Texas, or panhandle, or any of that, every time I dealt with them they was very strong on the Texan Unity Here to Serve and Defend All of Texas regardless sort of mentality.

If there is any unit in the entire US that views itself as a state militia more than a reserve for the Active Army more than the 49th - I don't know what it would be.

Yes, there might be a handful of NA folks in it. Yes, there would be desertions, but not to the degree that would be seen in other more adhoc units built up by combining various units from various states (the 49th Armoured is the *only* Armoured Division in the USANG that is solely made up of Texan Units) with the expected results in cohesion (IE, That SC NG General is sacrificing the Georgian units because he is trying to keep *his* states people intact... blah blah blah).

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

...this a is a case where your knowledge base puts you in the position I would be in if I was talking about things certain Aussie units would or wouldn't do.

You are quite probably right about that. However, I was mainly trying to illustrate how certain apparent discrepancies between resources can be explained by applying a little time, effort and logic. There's no need to ignore any of the published material if enough thought and consideration is put in, along with discussions just like this one with like minded Twilight enthusiasts.

[Panther Al]

If you take the 2300 point of view where Texas went its own way, I think it would argue for the 49th being more or less still a going concern: and *very* believable.

If you go to the State House, there is the lobby there in the inside. On the Centre of the lobby floor is the great seal of Texas, arranged around it, is all the other people that at one time or another claimed Texas as part of it: The US Seal is no larger or smaller than any of the others - with room for more.


Always thought it was a clever way to say something without actually saying it.

[Olefin]

Actually Leg there is a great need to ignore the published material if it makes no sense - and the wasting away of the 49th is one place where it makes no sense - too many tanks and men gone in too short a time against forces that cannot seriously harm it.

This isnt an infantry division who doesnt belong in Texas getting bushwhacked by Texas marauders who know the land better than they do.

These are native Texans fighting on their own land, who know the terrain and where to fight and where not to fight. Its one thing if they were fighting Soviet armor and losing tanks - but not against Texan marauders.

There are a lot of things wrong with Howling Wildnerness but if I had to stake a claim on one of the most egregious things its what it tries to do to the 49th Armored.

Remember, like I said, this isnt a bunch of Idaho NG or NY National Guard units getting whipped or losing their morale fighting for land that isnt their own - this is their own home state, their own land and most importantly their own people they would be fighting for. The only defectors that would be happening would be Texian forces deserting to the 49th, not the other way around.

[James Langham]

Maybe the desertions are locals returning to their homes to defend them?

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually Leg there is a great need to ignore the published material if it makes no sense - and the wasting away of the 49th is one place where it makes no sense - too many tanks and men gone in too short a time against forces that cannot seriously harm it.

This isnt an infantry division who doesnt belong in Texas getting bushwhacked by Texas marauders who know the land better than they do.

These are native Texans fighting on their own land, who know the terrain and where to fight and where not to fight. Its one thing if they were fighting Soviet armor and losing tanks - but not against Texan marauders.

There are a lot of things wrong with Howling Wildnerness but if I had to stake a claim on one of the most egregious things its what it tries to do to the 49th Armored.

Remember, like I said, this isnt a bunch of Idaho NG or NY National Guard units getting whipped or losing their morale fighting for land that isnt their own - this is their own home state, their own land and most importantly their own people they would be fighting for. The only defectors that would be happening would be Texian forces deserting to the 49th, not the other way around.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Maybe the desertions are locals returning to their homes to defend them?

That makes perfect sense to me and goes a long way to explaining why the 49th deteriorate so quickly. As shown in the books, the 49th is away from home, the Mexicans have invaded, the Russians are in San Antonio, the countryside is in chaos and a number of areas have been nuked. Civil order has broken down and the law extends only as far as the end of a rifle barrel.

Many soldiers, having friends and family in this war zone, aren't going to like being stuck in another state fighting for other people when the situation at home is so grim. The fact that the entire Division is from Texas, and smaller units of battalion, company and even platoon size come from the same geographic regions or even towns is likely to work against the 49th staying together - entire subunits could well fade away in the night taking their vehicles with them to bolster their home towns defences.

In that light, even though they're all Texans, the 49th may well come apart even faster than units elsewhere made of of people from all over the country. Additionally, unlike many other units, home isn't beyond reach - a few weeks on foot could be sufficient to get them there, and Milgov isn't exactly in a position to chase after them.