OTish - the current situation on the board

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Targan

I've said this a number of times, but it bears repeating: THE CURRENT TROUBLES ON THIS FORUM DO NOT HAVE CANON VS NON-CANON AT THEIR CORE.

Not one single member here is openly advocating that everyones' T2K campaigns must conform to canon.
But heed my words, friends - WE ARE BEING MANIPULATED. Much of the recent vitriol has been deliberately reignited solely to feed one man's perverse pleasure.

Everyone, take a step back if you will, look over the more contentious posts of the past few weeks, and analyse them with with a critical eye and with regard to what I've said in this post. There is a pattern at work here, and it's malicious and fully intentional. Don't buy into it. We're better than that.

Originally Posted by Webstral

The issue at hand is not canon, though disagreements about published materials versus artistic license are the means by which the issue is being expressed. At issue is the culture of this Board—specifically, how we handle disagreements. Integrating new people and ideas can be painful because the relationships and the norms have to be reset, which is one reason why the new is not necessarily good just by being new. We went down this road a while ago and managed to establish a tolerable equilibrium after a couple of members received temporary bans.
This reminds me of something I have not said pointedly enough: this is a gentlemen’s club. We don’t do business here the way business is done in most of the other forums devoted to gaming or military interests. Those of us who have been here for any length of time like the culture the way it has come to be, more or less.
The real question is whether we are going to defend the existing norms—the existing culture—or not.
I intend to defend the existing norms of the culture from this point onward. Kato went into self-imposed exile rather than tell some folks that we don’t sit in the smoking lounge with one hand down our pants. I’m staying here. We chew with our mouths closed. We swallow before we begin speaking. We do not boorishly browbeat our fellow members of the forum. We behave with grace. We agree with grace, and we disagree with grace. The more vehemently we disagree, the more important that grace becomes. We are not in court, where a measure of drama and chicanery impresses a jury. We are in a group of our peers.
I have a prediction: tomorrow or the next day, one of the regulars here will PM me expressing a measure of regret for his recent confrontational words. This will be in keeping with the culture, which is why people here generally respect him. Another person is going to attempt to justify and rationalize his confrontational words rather than take ownership of them. This is not in keeping with the culture. One of those two people is going to be on a short list of folks whose membership cards I am going to actively seek to revoke in defense of what we have here at the gentlemen’s club.

Originally Posted by James Langham

We are greater than the sum of the parts.

Web, what you've written is from the bottom of my heart. It is the question, if we, as a community, keep up our way of debating gentlemanly! This is, after all, one of the reasons, why I (and supposingly a lot of the other members) joined this particularly board.

What Targan wrote, seems evenly to be true. At least, that's the way, I see it.

And what James said, should be true, if we stick to the etablated and proven way of dealing with one another.

There have been postings in that thread, that could have been quoted by myself, but I don't think, this is necessary: You've got the idea, and I am glad, that so many added their personal views.

It is very important, to have new views and ideas. But the "newbys" should "behave". (To make that clear: I still consider myself being a "newby", and the oldtimers should behave accordingly!)

[Olefin]

For the record - nothing I have done here was, in any way, a planned or intentional malicious act. There has been no attempt at manipulation by me in any way, except for stating my opinion and my ideas as everyone else does, to stimulate conversation and present a viewpoint that may not match everyone else's.

Webstral - if this is a gentleman's club, then gentlemen dont publicly call out other members or accuse them of malice of forethought. If there is a culture of civility, then frankly publicly trying to hang one member without any proof of any wrong doing is not an act I have ever heard deemed civil. And the act of smearing excrement that you said before made the board a lesser place being repeated again on a member trying to have honest conversation and express his viewpoint is hardly going to reflect well on the board the second time it happens.

As for what provoked this situation - I posted a thread about timeline errors in HW that directly contradict the timeline in another canon module. What did I say - that the March 2001 date as applied to four US divisions in HW was incorrect as it applied to the timeline in the previously released Ozarks module and that it would work fine if the date was moved to say June 2001.

Not that the events never happened - but that they happened later than in the module so they would fit with the events of Ozark. I.e. at most something along the lines of updating the April 1 numbers to have them bigger but then say by June 1 the events of fighting with New America in the Ozarks have reduced the 85th Division, etc.. to the numbers given in HW for April 1 for those divisions specifically.

And why did I put them up - because Legbreaker asked me directly on a post what I disagreed with specifically about HW and I stated it directly as an answer politely and without rancor.

As simple as that.

As for being some planned act to try to disrupt the board - I was re-reading Ozarks and HW that morning in order to respond to what James had posted and noticed the discrepancy in the timeline and figured it would make a good post.

No manipulation, no act of disruption - just pointing out an error in HW as I was asked to do so by a board member and an easy fix to correct it that I thought made sense and that could have been responded to or not.

There is no directive that says that canon cannot be questioned or cannot be called into account as part of being a member here. Threads, if they are deemed as going too far, can be locked or offending posts removed if they break the rules of the board. Moderators can notify people politely about such posts and they can be modified or removed easily.

I said I am not here to win friends. That doesnt mean I came here to make enemies in any way. And if I do make friends, which I have done, then so much the better.

It means that I will defend, as politely as possible, what I post and answer criticism instead of meekly bowing down to anyone who doesnt like what I say in an attempt to fit in.

Clearly an agenda does exist here on the board but its not mine. My only agenda is to discuss a game that I love in order to have even more fun with it and hopefully find new things about it and may even post some things that others can use in the process.

Thats what a discussion board is supposed to be about. And yes I have made mistakes both here and on older boards I was on in the past. But as opposed to others I can move on from the past and learn not to repeat the same mistakes.

As such I take full ownership of what I have said here without any rationalization beyond that of trying to stimulate discussion on a discussion board/forum. If I offended anyone with what I said it was not intentional in any way and for that I apologize profusely. If there are cultural differences between myself and other members that made what I said seem to be insulting when it was honestly never meant to be, then I will do my best to address that in the future.

What I have posted was not done maliciously or with any plan of any sort. Accusing me of such publicly is not civil behavior nor is it gentlemanly no matter how long a member has been on a board, whether they are a founder or joined a day ago.

Quashing the voice of a member who is honestly trying to stimulate debate and conversations, and doing so while answering the questions of another member in the process as politely as he can, is not a cultured act or that of gentlemen of any type or nationality.

[kalos72]

The problem is, some of this issues/topics are not debatable.

You can't debate with me that the 1st Cav landed in NYC...because in my campaign they did. Simple.

If I ask for opinions on that topic that's one thing but generally...its my own timeline. The difference is that most people put up their own work to share with the population not to get approval or have it reviewed and critiqued.

There is just way too much variation to the way different people write their story lines to use any one timeline/canon as a baseline to test against.

IE Nothing you post is wrong,its yours. We just need to accept or ignore it as we choice personally, privately.

[Olefin]

Agreed.

First Cav in NYC - now thats how you take back NY!

[TrailerParkJawa]

Hi Everyone,

Its been a few years at least since Ive visited the board. Looking at the threads I can sense tension. Its a little odd to see since I remember everyone sharing their ideas about t2k pretty peacefully.

I dont have any solutions other than to say what I really like about the board is discussing things that dont seem realistic or what would or wouldnt be important in a T2K world. As long as we all rememeber its a game and choices have to be made to make the game fun.

TPJ

[Raellus]

Long time, no see, TPJ. We've missed you. Sorry you've walked into such a mess. We are dealing with it now.

[Graebarde]

I've been a member on this board since it was created I think, after the other board folded, and was there for many moon before. I have been an avid Twilighter way before it became synonymous with vampires, which I might add I am NOT a fan of.

I am one that has said more than once "I'm done with this crap", but I come back, mostly to see what new ideas are bouncing around, only to find some of the 'same old crap', spewing I might add from the same mouths as before.

I was one of those that felt DC Groups were treated very poorly, but that is water under the bridge. It's said it's not canon-v-noncanon. Unless you are asking a canon directed question specifically, ANY idea is non canon, but THAT is what flows this board IMO. IF I want canon, I read the books, of which I have all but about three (which I loaned out years ago and never got back and can't even recall WHO I loaned them to.. age does that to you)

Civility is the key. IF you don't like it, there is no need to harp on it. Yes, it DOES drive people away. Nit picking is what kids do for attention, the WRONG kind of attention. I fully agree with Web..

I truely enjoy the information people put out. I might NOT agree with it all, but it is their idea and opinion, and I will strive to only give constructive criticism. As an 'old fart' I do have 'some' experiences in the Real World that can enhace ideas??

95th, I would really like to see you take on the REAL cold war battle scenario cira 1980s. (my era)

NOW can we get to talking about the Twilight Wars?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From my viewpoint, this hasn't been about the information that is being presented (by old members or new).
It's been about HOW that information was presented (and by that I mean the tone it was presented in).

[Jason Weiser]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

I've been a member on this board since it was created I think, after the other board folded, and was there for many moon before. I have been an avid Twilighter way before it became synonymous with vampires, which I might add I am NOT a fan of.

Ya know Grae, I've been thinking the same thing...and really...

Picks up used K-Pot, dons worn LBE

I say it's time we took back the honored name of Twilight from those fangeeks and emo twits. I say we hunt down those baseball playing bloodsuckers and kill them deader than Rasputin! Hell, if Wesley Snipes can do it, we sure as hell can!

Taps magazine on K-Pot to seat rounds then shoves magazine into the well of his weapon, and thumbs the bolt release, making a satisfying CHA-CHUNK as it chambers a round and the sound puts a smile on my face.

Dibs on the HMMWV .50 Cal! Web brew us some hooch! Grae, you're driving! And somebody get us a LAV! I let you all figure out who's crewing. They wanna see Twilight...we'll show 'em Twilight!

(This comedy break brought to you solely by a Twilight 2000 fan who wants his shorthand name back).

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

Dibs on the HMMWV .50 Cal!

I would love to see what a .50 cal round through the thoracic cavity would do to a vampire. Then a few more in case he was inclined to get back up and capable of doing so. What about in the head? The brain is still the CPU, right? Break the computer and surely the undead die.

P.S. Not at all convinced you want to leave me in charge of the moonshine. It'll get brewed just fine...

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

I say it's time we took back the honored name of Twilight from those fangeeks and emo twits. I say we hunt down those baseball playing bloodsuckers and kill them deader than Rasputin! Hell, if Wesley Snipes can do it, we sure as hell can!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: vampires should sparkle only after you apply the white phosphorus.

- C.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

I've been a member on this board since it was created I think, after the other board folded, and was there for many moon before.

Grae, I've been wondering where you got yourself off too. You predate me on the previous Board, and that's saying something.

Ah, if only I had the time to write like I did before kids! I miss having the luxury of spending an entire Saturday writing "The Storm in Germany". Those were the days! I think regularly about finishing that piece--at least through the lull in hostilities resulting from NATO reaching the borders of the DDR. I dream about finishing the Sino-Soviet War up through October 1996. I dream about getting Thunder Empire finished through 01 APR 01, along with Poseidon's Rifles and Silver Shogunate. If I could find a few more hours, I could finish the rest of my guide to northern New England and maybe get started on the San Francisco Bay. Of course, if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And why did I put them up - because Legbreaker asked me directly on a post what I disagreed with specifically about HW and I stated it directly as an answer politely and without rancor.

I said I had nothing further to say, but I'm sorry, I simply can't remain silent on this one.
I have spent the past 45 minutes intensively searching every post I have made in the last two weeks. Not once have I asked Olefin to list what what he disagreed with. The above statement is a blatant lie.
The question he may be thinking of is my single question in the Howling Wilderness thread after he started listing his issues.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Ok, lets turn this on it's head for something different.
What do you see is right?

I STRONGLY object to my name being used to justify another's poor judgement and offensive actions.

If somebody can show where I have in fact made such a request, I will happily withdraw my comments and offer public apology to this forum.