U.S. Marines on the Baltic: Task Force Inchon

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

As for the Russians having three years to convince the Poles that it was all the West's fault, another Pole told me they have a saying, "How can you tell a Russian is lying? His mouth is moving and words are coming out."

Which is exactly why it wouldn't be the Russians doing the talking - they'd get loyal Poles, Czechs, and whoever else they could drag in to be the mouthpieces.
Propaganda also doesn't have to be verbal. A few posters stuck up on trees here and there, newspaper reports and just about any other form of communication (right up to smoke signals!) could and probably would be used.
They're not new to the game. They know what they're up against and how best to go about their work. Will they be 100% successful? Highly doubtful, but they will have an important impact.
Meanwhile, Nato, not being there on the ground where it counts, isn't going to make a lot of headway with the hearts and minds campaign.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Propaganda also doesn't have to be verbal. A few posters stuck up on trees here and there, newspaper reports and just about any other form of communication (right up to smoke signals!) could and probably would be used.
They're not new to the game. They know what they're up against and how best to go about their work. Will they be 100% successful? Highly doubtful, but they will have an important impact.
Meanwhile, Nato, not being there on the ground where it counts, isn't going to make a lot of headway with the hearts and minds campaign.

Very important, the Soviets will have had 40+ years of peacetime and 3+ years of war to sink their message in. My vision of the 1997 NATO invasion of Poland has lots of Poles, individually, welcoming the Americans and British (tolerating the Germans at best) forces, hundreds if not thousands joining the Polish forces in exile or volunteering as translators and the like.

BUT when the Soviets push NATO back to the Oder in the autumn, and the nukes are used by both sides, nearly all of whatever goodwill the NATO/anti-Soviet forces had built up would have disappeared. When NATO doesn't come back in '98 or '99, there's darn few opportunities to stoke it up again. I still hold to a failed Polish attempt to organize mass defections as a keystone to planning the summer '00 offensive, and this is a piece of that.

[Raellus]

But those wartime NATO-free years of Soviet occupation also give the Soviets plenty of time to alienate their hosts. The Soviets weren't the best of guests during peacetime, and their track record in Eastern Europe from '39-45 was pretty terrible- it wasn't just the Germans that suffered as the Red Tide pushed west to Berlin.

With most of the nation reduced to rubble, I think that Polish attitudes towards foreign troops would include a lot of local variation. If the nearby Soviet garrison was well-behaved and helpful, the local Poles would likely be very pro-Soviet. If the Polish [coummunist] government garrison one town over was callous and predatory, the locals may lean more towards NATO. If NATO troops looted and raped on their last trip through... and so on and so forth. The list goes on.

I'm sure that by 2000 a lot of Poles would just be sick and tired of every foreigner trespassing on Polish soil.

I haven't had a chance yet to address local Polish civilian attitudes towards either side for my Elblag campaign- at least not IG. In the backstory I was working on, there was some established bad blood between the Elblag Poles and the Soviets because of the way Polish refugees were treated by the people of Kaliningrad earlier in the war. Also, NATO troops passing through the region were generally much better behaved than their Red Army counterparts. And lastly, the Red Army tended not to be very careful on where they placed their considerable artillery assets. All of this combined to make the Elblag civilians a little more sympathetic towards NATO.

[oldschoolgm]

Something I came across lately may be worth thinking about. According the to UK sourcebook (v. 1), it's states that the British 1st Armored Division did move through the Baltic Coast area early in the war. This could be part of the reason Elblarg lays in ruins.

Secondly as I've been reading over some of the city descriptions from the modules, there seems to be a trend for the cities and towns to be more pro-western than pro-soviet. I would imagine that the tendency of the Polish attitudes to lean more pro-western even in the Baltic regions as well.

My assumption, due to lack of anything canonical regarding this, is that the Marines will absorb some local Polish militia and army regulars, they will also pick up a fair amount of allied regulars from other units that are apart of the offensive and not terribly distant from the Marine front lines. And it also wouldn't surprise me if they didn't absorb some Soviet defectors as well. (And how appropriate would it be that they may be GRU or KGB moles?) Either way I think we would not be too far from wrong in saying that in general terms the Poles lean more pro-west in the summer of 2k.

[Legbreaker]

On the other hand soldiers of any nationality are always worth making friends with when they're camped next door to you....

[GDWFan]

Is it just me or does leg make every thread a labor to read? I mean instead of moving the idea forward and sharing info, posters are forced to argue every point against leg one at time. the constant angry canon spouting devils advocate act gets so old, kills interesting threads and chases away good members. Am I the only one?

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

Something I came across lately may be worth thinking about. According the to UK sourcebook (v. 1), it's states that the British 1st Armored Division did move through the Baltic Coast area early in the war. This could be part of the reason Elblarg lays in ruins.

Well, given that the historical British Cold War forces were based in northern Germany, that makes sense. I'd be more than willing to believe that the British Army of the Rhine had NATO's left flank in 1997 and onward.

[oldschoolgm]

I went back and reread the info from the UK sourcebook and found this on page 8, under the year 1997:

<<On 2 April 2, NATO launched Operation Advent Crown. The
German Second Army drove up the Baltic coast, and the German
Third Army advanced along the Oder River. The German First
Army, to which 1st Corps was attached, was ordered to drive
through central Poland. Led by 1st Armoured Division, 1st Corps
broke through the Polish forces on the Oder on the 24th. On 4 May,
the division entered Poznan, and the corps split into two columns,
with 1st and 2nd divisions continuing east, while the rest of the
corps headed southeast. On 11 May, the 4th Armoured Division
took Kalisz, encountering only scattered opposition; on 17 May, it
reached Lodz, which fell on the 25th. By the end of May, the two
columns linked up on the outskirts of Warsaw—the corps was
ordered to take the city.>>

The British BOAR I Corps is lead by the 1st Armored Division according the the books OOB, but there is also a glaring contradiction in the following chapters. Read the following:

<<In mid-July, the Italians began to enter southern Germany, and
NATO forces moved to oppose them—primarily the British 1st and
2nd armoured divisions.>>

<<As August arrived, BAOR was forced to switch to the defensive.
Soviet forces were attempting to relieve Warsaw, and NATO forces
to the north and south of BAOR's theater were conducting mobile
defensive withdrawals. On 15 September, the Soviet 7th Guards
Tank Army broke through to Warsaw. First Corps began a fierce
withdrawal action in a desperate attempt to stop the Soviets, but
it was too heavily outnumbered and was pushed back. By the end
of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to
stop the Soviets The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear
weapons.>>

The official canon really screws up here because in roughly a months time they are trying to say that the 1st Armored goes from North of Warsaw to Southern Germany and then back to North of Warsaw. I see the 1st Armored staying North of Warsaw and some other unit joining the 2nd Armored Division going to handle the Italians.

Of Note; The German 1st Army of which I Corps of the BOAR is attached seems to have stayed in the region between the Baltic Coast and Warsaw through much of 1997. Elblarg was probably destroyed in the nuclear exchange when the Soviets pushed the Allies out of Poland late in the year.

Food for thought and discussion!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

The British BOAR I Corps is lead by the 1st Armored Division according the the books OOB, but there is also a glaring contradiction in the following chapters. Read the following:

Food for thought and discussion!

If you read on, the contradiction actually gets worse. From page 47 of the SGUK:

EAST (2ND ARMOURED) DIVISION
The division was formed in the summer of 1996 and arrived in
Germany on 15 October 1996. It crossed the interGerman frontier
on 10 December 1996 and was in combat by 12 December 1996.
The 2nd fought hard in eastern Germany, where it repulsed an
attack by the Soviet 20th Guards Army.
In July 1997, the division was sent south, along with the rest of
I Corps, to fight the Italians.

That quote suggests that the entire I Corps was transferred to southern Germany in July 1997.

I'd say the most likely compromise to try and follow canon would be to shift the 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions to southern Germany, whilst leaving the 3rd and 4th Armoured Divisions in Poland.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Very important, the Soviets will have had 40+ years of peacetime and 3+ years of war to sink their message in. My vision of the 1997 NATO invasion of Poland has lots of Poles, individually, welcoming the Americans and British (tolerating the Germans at best) forces, hundreds if not thousands joining the Polish forces in exile or volunteering as translators and the like.

BUT when the Soviets push NATO back to the Oder in the autumn, and the nukes are used by both sides, nearly all of whatever goodwill the NATO/anti-Soviet forces had built up would have disappeared. When NATO doesn't come back in '98 or '99, there's darn few opportunities to stoke it up again. I still hold to a failed Polish attempt to organize mass defections as a keystone to planning the summer '00 offensive, and this is a piece of that.

Originally Posted by Raellus

With most of the nation reduced to rubble, I think that Polish attitudes towards foreign troops would include a lot of local variation. If the nearby Soviet garrison was well-behaved and helpful, the local Poles would likely be very pro-Soviet. If the Polish [coummunist] government garrison one town over was callous and predatory, the locals may lean more towards NATO. If NATO troops looted and raped on their last trip through... and so on and so forth. The list goes on.

I'm sure that by 2000 a lot of Poles would just be sick and tired of every foreigner trespassing on Polish soil.

I agree with Adm Lee and Raellus' takes on this. I think by 2000 most Poles would have pretty negative attitudes to all foreign troops on their soil. The attitudes of individual Poles would vary, obviously, but as whole I suspect they would "hate everyone else equally".

GDW Fan and Keg, I don't think this thread is at the point where it requires mod intervention. We're having a spirited discussion, yes, but at this stage that appears to be stimulating further discussion, not discouraging it. That said, let's try to keep things cordial, eh?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

GDW Fan and Keg, ...

Keg? KEG!?
I resemble that comment! Well, ok, maybe not now I've lost 10 kgs.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Keg? KEG!?
I resemble that comment! Well, ok, maybe not now I've lost 10 kgs.

Oops. QWERTY keyboard, K right next to L, you know how it is