OT: Emergency Kits

[Targan]

Originally Posted by bobcat

not to mention the M1911 i always carry.

So you have a permit to carry or are you permitted to keep a firearm in your vehicle in your state?

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Targan

So you have a permit to carry or are you permitted to keep a firearm in your vehicle in your state?

Concealed Carry in a vehicle is a very touchy thing: in a few places where CC is allowed, doing so in a car isn't allowed, but most are coming around to allowing it.


While I as well swear by a Kimber Ultra Carry 1911, following the lead and the suggestion of some LE folks back when I was in the upper midwest I took advantage of a neat little loophole.

You see, about everywhere, the laws say you can't carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle. And while a Pistol is handy, it is always better to use a rifle when you can. Crappy as 5.56 is, its still better in most places than even the .45.

So what you do, is buy - for example - A SiG P556. Its one of those 5.56 AR's that has been built as a 'Pistol'. 99% of the time, those sorts of Pistols are crap: the only way to make them work is attach a sling, and push hard forwards on the grips in order to get a stable shot off. Now, it helps if you have a fore-grip - but thats very illegal. So is attaching a folding stock.

Unless you get a SBR permit.

Now, the loophole is that federal law says than anything under 26" that isn't a registered machine gun is considered a pistol. Even if the P556 is given the SBR (Short Barrel Rifle) treatment, its still a pistol. So, a folding stock P556 with fore-grip and 30rd Mag, is a pistol - and can be kept concealed and loaded in your car within easy reach.

I'll take that over a .45 anyday in any situation that isn't tailor made for pistols only... and maybe even then.

[bobcat]

the only downside to that is the consequences of ever using an registered NFA weapon for self defense. even if you win the criminal action the civil action will destroy you. thus an AR15 in the back is a safer option from a CYA stand point. granted im not a lawyer so consult yours and get his professional opinion.

[Panther Al]

Depends a lot on the location: Where I was there has been more than a few SBR's involved in shootings: But all the owners was careful in the use of force and the civil bits was all non-starters.

Gotta love cell phone camera's.


And even then, if you are in an area where the law and the lawyers work more for the crooks than the good guys, don't bother with the SBR route. Even using a sling press the P556 is still a lot more accurate and capable than a Pistol in a lot of places.

Your milage may vary of course.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by bobcat

the only downside to that is the consequences of ever using an registered NFA weapon for self defense. even if you win the criminal action the civil action will destroy you.

Can you cite any case in which civil action has resulted from the use of an NFA item in what was otherwise a "clean" defensive shooting?

- C.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Can you cite any case in which civil action has resulted from the use of an NFA item in what was otherwise a "clean" defensive shooting?

- C.

I can't think of any - but then I don't follow the courts nor have I been involved in any civilian shooting incidents myself.

In the three occasions where I have heard of SBR's being used, two times was inside the owners home against multiple armed assailants, and the third was a classic clusterfuck that could have been avoided - but the shooter covered his bases with said camera phone. Being off duty LE helped I imagine as well.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Now, the loophole is that federal law says than anything under 26" that isn't a registered machine gun is considered a pistol. Even if the P556 is given the SBR (Short Barrel Rifle) treatment, its still a pistol. So, a folding stock P556 with fore-grip and 30rd Mag, is a pistol - and can be kept concealed and loaded in your car within easy reach.

Al - citation? My reading of BATFE regs and rulings suggests that placing a formerly pistol-configured weapon on the NFA registry as an SBR (e.g. Form 1 registration of an AR or SIG 556 pistol) makes it legally a rifle, not a pistol, because the Form 1 records the act of "manufacturing" the SBR. It may be possible to return it to legal "pistol" status by (1) removing it from the registry and (2) removing the stock, but I wouldn't want to gamble on that.

- C.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Al - citation? My reading of BATFE regs and rulings suggests that placing a formerly pistol-configured weapon on the NFA registry as an SBR (e.g. Form 1 registration of an AR or SIG 556 pistol) makes it legally a rifle, not a pistol, because the Form 1 records the act of "manufacturing" the SBR. It may be possible to return it to legal "pistol" status by (1) removing it from the registry and (2) removing the stock, but I wouldn't want to gamble on that.

- C.

Its a little fuzzy, but the way it worked in the cases I know of falls under the rule in Michigan that any rifle that has an overall length under 30" has to be registered locally as a pistol. Even though its a rifle. The Feds consider anything under 26" as a pistol - though as you say, once you get into the SBR realm things get a little weird. If I was to do it, I would stick with a foreward grip over a stock, but even that has to be done under the SBR rules. Don't know if you can find a way to fit it under the AOW catagory - somehow I doubt it. As it stands, in this occasion, yes, the Feds say Rifle. And Yes, the locals say Pistol. So.... a mess. Falls into who you know and who you are unless something goes really sideways.

Really, once you start getting into the NFA realm, you really have to have a legal eagle on your side sorting through the morass of various laws: it isn't something you can go alone safely in my opinion.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Targan

So you have a permit to carry or are you permitted to keep a firearm in your vehicle in your state?

As Al says, it varies. Some states do allow you to keep a loaded firearm accessible in your vehicle, but not all. The safest thing to do as a civilian is to get a concealed carry license... and then only drive into states with which your home state has reciprocity.

(Serving or retired law enforcement officers have considerably more latitude under LEOSA, which entitles them to carry concealed just about anywhere if they meet certain prerequisites and has federal preemption for state laws.)

- C.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

As Al says, it varies. Some states do allow you to keep a loaded firearm accessible in your vehicle, but not all. The safest thing to do as a civilian is to get a concealed carry license... and then only drive into states with which your home state has reciprocity.

Wow, Teg, it's almost like you can read my mind . My next question was to be about the implications of crossing state lines with a licensed, concealed weapon or a weapon in the glove box or under the seat of your vehicle. So it's all about individual states and their laws and reciprocal agreements with neighbouring states?

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Targan

Wow, Teg, it's almost like you can read my mind . My next question was to be about the implications of crossing state lines with a licensed, concealed weapon or a weapon in the glove box or under the seat of your vehicle. So it's all about individual states and their laws and reciprocal agreements with neighbouring states?

Correct. In the U.S., we have several levels of laws regarding firearms.

The highest is federal, which regulates import/export, production, retail purchases (under the "interstate commerce" clause), and "NFA items." NFA stands for the National Firearms Act of 1934, which made certain classes of weapon illegal for civilian ownership without registration and a tax, paid at each instance of manufacture and change of ownership. Those classes are "machine guns" (fully automatic weapons), SBRs (Short-Barreled Rifles, those with barrels under 16"), SBSes (Short-Barreled Shotguns, those with barrels under 18"), suppressors/silencers, "destructive devices" (explosives, poison gas, and anything but a shotgun with a bore diameter greater than 0.5 inch), and AOWs (Any Other Weapon, which mainly includes micro-shotguns like the Serbu Super Shorty and disguised firearms like pen guns). Federal law also establishes a list of federal properties onto which you can't carry a weapon.

Finally, relevant to your question, federal law establishes the standard for legal transport (but not personal carry) of a firearm anywhere in the United States: unloaded, in a locked case, separate from ammunition, and not accessible from the vehicle's passenger compartment. Note that some jurisdictions (notably New York and New Jersey) refuse to recognize this law unless sued for false arrest, but it's generally safe in most other states. Also note that this is the "legal anywhere" standard, but most states are more permissive in the mode of carry or transport they allow.

State laws vary widely, based on the history and political climate of each state. Some states place additional restrictions on the purchase process for firearms (registration, waiting periods, additional taxes, purchase licenses, and/or restrictions on weapon features or magazine capacity). Others do not. Concealed carry licensing also is a state-level function. Currently, 49 of the 50 states have some form of concealed carry laws, but there is no uniform standard for how hard or expensive it is to get. Also, there is no federal mandate for reciprocity, so some states will recognize any other state's concealed carry licenses while others will not.

The third potential level of firearm law occurs at the local or county level. This is not universal. Many states have state preemption laws, which forbid their subordinate jurisdictions from passing more restrictive laws. Some, however, do not. These preemption laws are generally regarded as a good thing because they prevent travelers from inadvertently breaking local law during the course of an otherwise-innocent journey.

(Notably for the original purposes of this discussion, there is no federal law on concealed carry licensing, outside of the aforementioned LEOSA. There is a bill in progress to force all states with concealed carry licenses to grant reciprocity to all other such states, which would theoretically allow legal concealed carry everywhere but Illinois. Its fate, however, is uncertain.)

- C.

[weswood]

There's a couple different terms of issuance, based on the different states' political climate. There's "May Issue" which I gather is based upon the requestor proving they need to carry concealed, "Shall Issue" where all the individual has to do is prove he's had training and a background check, and No Issuance where it's illegal for civilians to carry. Most states have reprocity honoring other states CHLs.

Here in Texas a CHL requires 10 hours of training and a background check. Texas seems to be the most expensive, a Concealed Handgun License runs $140 for the initial CHL, good for 5 years. Renewal runs $70 per 5 years. (Veterans get 1/2 price). It's also legal to carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle. It's an extension of the "Castle Doctrine", under the belief your vehicle is an extension of your home.

[DocSavage45B10]

On the other hand Texas has reciprocity with Utah, who grants permits out of state...

And there's the travelling law bit, which covers your car gun.

Originally Posted by weswood

Here in Texas a CHL requires 10 hours of training and a background check. Texas seems to be the most expensive, a Concealed Handgun License runs $140 for the initial CHL, good for 5 years. Renewal runs $70 per 5 years. (Veterans get 1/2 price). It's also legal to carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle. It's an extension of the "Castle Doctrine", under the belief your vehicle is an extension of your home.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by weswood

Here in Texas a CHL requires 10 hours of training and a background check. Texas seems to be the most expensive, a Concealed Handgun License runs $140 for the initial CHL, good for 5 years. Renewal runs $70 per 5 years. (Veterans get 1/2 price). It's also legal to carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle. It's an extension of the "Castle Doctrine", under the belief your vehicle is an extension of your home.

Unfortunately, in Texas, the mentally ill cannot own any firearm, regardless of how well controlled their illness is. And I have on my record one attempt of suicide by a firearm, so they're definitely going to try to protect me from myself.

So my weapons to defend my home consist of caustic household cleaners, kitchen knives and implements, heavy tools, and a bad ornamental wakizashi of questionable strength. It doesn't have an edge and won't take much of one, but it is nice and pointy, looks mean in the dark, and I know some basic fencing moves. Worth nothing if my opponent has a gun and has spotted me.