TW 2000 vs. TW 2013 burst fire rules

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Targan

The Twilight:2000 burst rules you mentioned are not familiar to me. Is that v2+?

From memory I think that the loads of D6 rules for burst fire are v1 and v2.0 - I think that they changed to a skill roll in v2.2

I'm sure that someone will correct me if my memory is wrong though.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

From memory I think that the loads of D6 rules for burst fire are v1 and v2.0 - I think that they changed to a skill roll in v2.2

I'm sure that someone will correct me if my memory is wrong though.

I'm to lazy to look it up in the BYB, but I'm shure, that Mahatatain is right. You loose rounds/D20, depending on the range, but you roll for bullets, that can hit the enemy in V2.2!

@ Mahatatain:
Man, your nickname is a nightmare to write: Too man "ta"s, if you ask me

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by B.T.

I'm to lazy to look it up in the BYB, but I'm shure, that Mahatatain is right. You loose rounds/D20, depending on the range, but you roll for bullets, that can hit the enemy in V2.2!

And the chance of hitting is much less than 1 in 6 (as with v1 and v2.0) - in v2.2 you're rolling a task check against your Autogun skill for each bullet with a typical chance of hitting of 1 in 10 (1 or 2 on a D20) - the number of rolls you make is dictated by the number of rounds you fire, reduced by range and recoil.

Originally Posted by B.T.

@ Mahatatain:
Man, your nickname is a nightmare to write: Too man "ta"s, if you ask me

Sorry - it's the name of an old character of mine that I loved but retired.

[Michael Lewis]

Oh yeah! I was looking at 2.0 My bad.

So Targan. What are these rules that your talking about?

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

So Targan. What are these rules that your talking about?

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules

[Cdnwolf]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules.


V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

[Michael Lewis]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules.


V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

Yeah, that seems redonkulous.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

[snip]

V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

Yes, that's what the rules say.
But keep in mind, that not-hitting dice are hold back. Half of the dice are rerolled imediately, to generate hits to "bystanders". Half of the dice, that are still missing are held back to generate hits to persons, that cross the Line of Fire, up to the firer's initiative step in the following Combat Turn.

Hm, unrealistic ... yes. But, as it is a gaming rule, it works in the game, to hold down an enemy with a carpet of bullets.
I really cant remember, if this applied to ver.1 and ver2.0.

An addition: After Mahatatain's post yesterday, I got aware, that I used a false interpretation of the rules all these years. Off course, the skill: Autogun should be used, because it is an automatic weapon. I allways used the Small Arms (Rifle) skill for tasks with battle rifles, assault rifles, and MPs/submachineguns. Autogun is reserved for heavy MGs and autocannons (I let the players chose, when they fire a medium MG. In this case they may use the skill that is higher.). This was a mistake, but still it worked, because most PCs have a higher skill in small arms, than they have in Autogun. I believe, I will stick to my wrong interpretation of the rules.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules.


V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

I like the 2.2 burst rules. If you look at statistics for number of rounds fired vs. hits obtained in combat, I think you will find out that hitting someone with autofire in T2K v2.2 is probably way too easy. I have seen stats indicating that it takes about 250,000 round to kill one insurgent in Iraq.

Now, there is a vast difference in the intensity of fire in T2K vs. a stand-up war like Iraq, where many rounds would be fired to suppress the enemy. However, most studies suggest that autofire is pretty damn ineffective in scoring hits on the enemy when the number of rounds fired is examined.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

So Targan. What are these rules that your talking about?

Well, Michael, I'm glad you've asked

I really like Gunmaster's burst fire rules. Gunmaster (a rules addition to Harnmaster) uses a straightforward percentile skills and task resolution system. To simplify the burst to-hit calculations, the writer (Bill Gant) created easy-to-use cross-referencing tables to give the GM and player an at-a-glance way to determine how many rounds are likely to hit the target based on the effective chance to hit (the chance to hit after all modifying factors have been added and subtracted) and the level of success or failure of the to-hit roll. Even if you don't use Gunmaster the concept is solid and worth a look:

http://www.warflail.com/harn/index.html#GMG