TW 2000 vs. TW 2013 burst fire rules

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Yes, Targan, tell us about these rules.


V2.2 (which I am running) has a confusing burst rule... if i get it right someone firing all five burst in one turn with an AKM (recoil 7) has to take (35 minus your strength) dice loss per burst... so someone with a strength of 8 would have to lose 27 dice when only firing 25... even at short range that brings it down to only 5 dice out of 25 hitting (minimum 1 dice rule)

Plus all automatic weapons are fired at the impossible difficulty level (.25) so even with a skill of 8 and a strength of 8 (total skill 16/4) would mean they would hit on a 4 or less ... almost impossible... and unrealistic

I like the 2.2 burst rules. If you look at statistics for number of rounds fired vs. hits obtained in combat, I think you will find out that hitting someone with autofire in T2K v2.2 is probably way too easy. I have seen stats indicating that it takes about 250,000 round to kill one insurgent in Iraq.

Now, there is a vast difference in the intensity of fire in T2K vs. a stand-up war like Iraq, where many rounds would be fired to suppress the enemy. However, most studies suggest that autofire is pretty damn ineffective in scoring hits on the enemy when the number of rounds fired is examined.

[stg58fal]

Originally Posted by Jason

I like the 2.2 burst rules. If you look at statistics for number of rounds fired vs. hits obtained in combat, I think you will find out that hitting someone with autofire in T2K v2.2 is probably way too easy. I have seen stats indicating that it takes about 250,000 round to kill one insurgent in Iraq.

The problem with those kind of statistics is that they only state rounds expended, NOT the manner in which they were. Also, most don't differentiate between small arms, autocannon, or even artillery. A lot of those 'statistics' from the Vietnam war, for example, 'round' meant 'round', regardless of whether it was from an M16, the F4 Phantom's cannon, or naval gunfire.

So when an AC-130 comes by and fires off most of it's weapon's load to kill 4 guys, you're looking at what, about a 5000:1 ratio of rounds expended to targets hit? At the small unit level, suppressive fire, say against enemy in a building or dug in, contributes to the high ratio too. It would be WAY too much of a pain in the ass to do, but I'm betting if someone were to separate out all the garbage, and only concentrate on burst fire at targets that could actually be seen, you'd see that the ratio of shots fired to hits scored is probably a lot better than the numbers that always get thrown around.

[James Langham]

Worth remembering that most fire is not actually AT an enemy but in the GENERAL area.

[HorseSoldier]

Recently reading Blackhorse Riders which talks about mad minutes in night defensive positions -- several times a night, at random points, all the machine guns in an armored cav troop would open up on the jungle for a minute or so. No targets involved, the idea was to break up any forming attack and generally discourage VC/NVA approach to the unit. (Rules of engagement have certainly changed . . .). Anyway, that's not even suppressive fire and was routine back then -- and is also part of those 250K to 1 round/casualty ratios from Vietnam.

[Adm.Lee]

Hitting stuff in v2 or 2.2 with autofire is even harder that I think you indicated-- half of the misses that might get rolled at those standing nearby does not include the shots that aren't rolled for recoil. So in the example above, with the guy firing off most of the magazine in his AKM, gets 5 rolls at 4- to hit, and then half of what's left.

I've been reducing it even further, due to rules confusion. If range and recoil reduce the number of rolls, then it's down to 1 roll only beyond Short range for the above example.

It's something I haven't been happy with, but there it is.

Using a light MG or SAW on a bipod or tripod can generate huge amounts of rolls, if your character is super-strong. In my summer game, there was a kid playing who had a 10 Strength, an M249 SAW, and maxed-out Small Arms (rifle). He could fire 50 shots and get 42 rolls at Short range, at 4- to hit. He put down a lot of bad guys.

[Cdnwolf]

Another way to visualize it is to think about how you play a FPS game like Call of Duty or Halo. I usually never "rock n roll" but limit my shooting to 3 to 5 round burst before switching targets. I always go for headshots too.