The Battle of Athens (2 AUGUST 1946)

[Targan]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my last post. I'm not suggesting taking handguns and rifles out of the hands of the American people, that's clearly not practical at this point. I was focussing on your suggestion that civilians be allowed to own any weapons and vehicles that the US military has. It was the thought of fully operational AFVs, grenades, RPGs and man-portable missiles in the hands of the general populace that I referred to as novel.

As for the second amendment, wasn't there a part about the right to bear arms for those involved with a "well regulated militia"? Private ownership of assault rifles by people who are not currently, and never have been, part of the military or police forces falls outside that wording doesn't it? That seems to be ignored or forgotten by the majority of those promoting private firearm ownership. Of course I'm not an American. Maybe there have been further amendments to that wording that I'm not aware of.

To be clear, I'd personally like to legally own handguns and military-style rifles. But I've been part of the military and have been trained to handle firearms, as have you. The thought of a bunch of handguns, assault rifles and ammo being kept in a house where a highly disturbed, introverted young man (whose own family had serious concerns about him) can easily get his hands on them just blows my mind.

[natehale1971]

Any able bodied citizen between the ages of 16 to 65 is considered a member of the militia (and thus why civilians can be 'deputized' to form up a posse during manhunts). All the way up to WW1 well-to-do citizens would foot the bill for the purchase of cannons, horses and firearms to be kept for their local armory. There as a story of three well-to-do Americans traveling trhough France during the Revolution, that were looking for a high-quality cannon for their artillery componet of their militia unit.

If you are qualified to fly a helicopter, you should then be able to acquire a helicopter gunship or transport. Being armed only with handguns and hunting rifles wouldn't stand a chance against an opressive state/federal government whose troops are armed with heavy weapons and armored vehicles.

The founders were very set on this... they wanted the progression of greiences to go... Soap box, Ballot Box, Jury Box and finally the Munition Box if nothing else has worked to get the government back into their limits and out of the lives of the citizens they are intruding upon.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Any able bodied citizen between the ages of 16 to 65 is considered a member of the militia (and thus why civilians can be 'deputized' to form up a posse during manhunts). All the way up to WW1 well-to-do citizens would foot the bill for the purchase of cannons, horses and firearms to be kept for their local armory. There as a story of three well-to-do Americans traveling trhough France during the Revolution, that were looking for a high-quality cannon for their artillery componet of their militia unit.

So you would argue that at this time every citizen of the United States of America aged between 16 and 65 could be accurately described as being part of a "well regulated militia"? Not just on paper or as a concept mind you. The modern equivalent of a "well regulated militia" would seem to me to involve perhaps compulsory military service, or some sort of State Guard-type arrangement, or at the very least some sort of regional police-citizenry training program for all young people in the year they turn 16 (which, by the way, I think sounds like an excellent idea).

Seriously, the real-life situation today is very, very different from that even 100 years ago, let alone during the time of the Revolutionary War. Back then a majority of Americans would need to know how to handle, maintain and use firearms and many communities would oftentimes have to police and protect themselves. I'm sorry but saying that all adult Americans are part of a well regulated militia in this day and age is, at best, paying lip service to the original ideals behind the second amendment, at worst a total fantasy. However I'd be happy to consider anyone with official military, paramilitary or police training to be, by default, part of a well regulated militia. That seems quite sensible to me.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Targan

So you would argue that at this time every citizen of the United States of America aged between 16 and 65 could be accurately described as being part of a "well regulated militia"? Not just on paper or as a concept mind you. The modern equivalent of a "well regulated militia" would seem to me to involve perhaps compulsory military service, or some sort of State Guard-type arrangement, or at the very least some sort of regional police-citizenry training program for all young people in the year they turn 16 (which, by the way, I think sounds like an excellent idea).

Seriously, the real-life situation today is very, very different from that even 100 years ago, let alone during the time of the Revolutionary War. Back then a majority of Americans would need to know how to handle, maintain and use firearms and many communities would oftentimes have to police and protect themselves. I'm sorry but saying that all adult Americans are part of a well regulated militia in this day and age is, at best, paying lip service to the original ideals behind the second amendment, at worst a total fantasy. However I'd be happy to consider anyone with official military, paramilitary or police training to be, by default, part of a well regulated militia. That seems quite sensible to me.

Targan those people (police, military & veterans) are the cadre core of the milita... they are the ones who would become the officers and senior non-coms. LIke i said earlier, it's why in the USA that law enforcement are able to recruit "special deputies" to form a posse to deal with issues during times of crisis and they just can't wait for reinforcements from state or federal forces to arrive to deal with the problems.

The founders also saw an oppressive government as the real threat to liberty, and the ability of every citizen in good standing to own the same kinds of weapons aviable to governmental agencies was seen as a counterbalance to such a thing ever happening here again.

Heck, when i was in my freshman year in High School we spent three weeks going through a firearms safety class... something that very few schools still do today. that ran us through firearms safety and basics of care and use of the most common types of weapons at the time. when I was in elementary school (third grade) we were taught that if you find a gun, you aren't to touch it... that it wasn't a toy. hell, I don't even know if the schools back on the mountain still do this with the kids anymore. because of the way guns are villianized as the source of all evil acts instead of blaming the person who used it for the evil they have committed.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Targan

Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my last post. I'm not suggesting taking handguns and rifles out of the hands of the American people, that's clearly not practical at this point. I was focussing on your suggestion that civilians be allowed to own any weapons and vehicles that the US military has. It was the thought of fully operational AFVs, grenades, RPGs and man-portable missiles in the hands of the general populace that I referred to as novel.

As for the second amendment, wasn't there a part about the right to bear arms for those involved with a "well regulated militia"? Private ownership of assault rifles by people who are not currently, and never have been, part of the military or police forces falls outside that wording doesn't it? That seems to be ignored or forgotten by the majority of those promoting private firearm ownership. Of course I'm not an American. Maybe there have been further amendments to that wording that I'm not aware of.

To be clear, I'd personally like to legally own handguns and military-style rifles. But I've been part of the military and have been trained to handle firearms, as have you. The thought of a bunch of handguns, assault rifles and ammo being kept in a house where a highly disturbed, introverted young man (whose own family had serious concerns about him) can easily get his hands on them just blows my mind.

Oddly enough Targan, with the right permit, and they are not that hard to get in the right places, you can get those items: AFV's, Grenades, and RPG's. Expensive as hell, but I do know a guy that does own a Mk19. Of course, you need a separate license for each live HE round - which isn't transferrable when you set said round off - making each round 200 bucks more than they cost - but you can do it.


As much as I want to scream at it - you got to love this country.