The 28th Infantry Division

[kiltedguard]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

IRL perhaps, but this is the alternate history of Twilight:2000.

I'm going to have to disagree. The Order of Battle for the 28th ID at the time of writing was a mixed division organized around the Regimental Combat Team model. This included 1 Armored Brigade, 1 Cav Squadron, Towed and SP artillery. So it was neither light nor heavy. The lack of detail by the writers isn't a de facto label of "Light Infantry" The US ARMY Vehicle Guide does include M60A1's in the listing of current armor.

Army Organizational History: http://www.history.army.mil/books/Li.../chapter13.htm

28th Infantry NG Harrisburg, Pa. 8 INF 1AR 1Mech

The above show the breakdown for the maneuver battalions as of June 1974...they remained unchanged in 1989. This doesn't include the combat service support battalions, FA, MP, Chem, or signal.

[Legbreaker]

Fair comment.

All I'm saying though is we as a community should be careful not to use real life situations, formations, OOBs, etc as the "template" for T2K when we have published game materials which say otherwise.

Where's there's no conflict, I say go to town, but where we have game material already covering certain aspects, we, as a community, should try to stick with them (unless for "personal consumption").

[kiltedguard]

I agree completely, I'm just trying to see if anyone has dug into the source material and found something I haven't, or with a better command of the overall breadth of the source data, might help to better flush out a division history. Where does it cover the 28th as a tactical reserve?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kiltedguard

Where does it cover the 28th as a tactical reserve?

Nowhere. It's just an assumption on my part based purely on the apparently offensively active 11th ACR and 3rd Armoured Divisions compared to the 28th ID - it's as good a theory as any I suppose....
For all we know, the 28th was virtually wiped out by the nuke strike(s) it suffered in 1997 and was simply incapable of anything beyond absorbing replacements and reorganising what little it had left of itself.

[kiltedguard]

This is all good stuff, but I want to read a little more on the organization of the units. I've been reading more on the operational theories for the employment of forces had we fought the war in Europe that we had prepared for for so long. I'm going to go back and read the source material again as well to try and get a handle on unit movement a bit better. I know that during the fear of possible Nuke attack, they dispersed the formations of the different units. It was either that or risk the annihilation that you mentioned. The risk to this was, if you were near the line....you diluted your defensive/offensive capabilities....so you were more at risk of being dispersed or destroyed by larger enemy formations.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

For all we know, the 28th was virtually wiped out by the nuke strike(s) it suffered in 1997 and was simply incapable of anything beyond absorbing replacements and reorganising what little it had left of itself.

Very similar to the condition it was in after being minced in the meatgrinder of the assault on the Huertgen Forest in WW2, which is why they were resting and recuperating in the quiet zone in front of the Ardennes at the time of the Bulge offensive. Wrong place, wrong time, bad luck, questionable command-and I'm not just pointing at General Cota, either.

Anyone else notice, in the general overview of the future history of the world of T2K, that history seems to be doing a lot of repeating?

[Legbreaker]

Easier to do that than try writing a whole new war history several years long...
GDW staff were churning out truckloads of material at the time so it's no surprise really they cut a few corners here and there where they thought original details weren't all that necessary.

With that in mind, we might cut a few corners ourselves and take some inspiration from the past too.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Easier to do that than try writing a whole new war history several years long...
GDW staff were churning out truckloads of material at the time so it's no surprise really they cut a few corners here and there where they thought original details weren't all that necessary.

With that in mind, we might cut a few corners ourselves and take some inspiration from the past too.

I will second that, there are no end of bits I have reused.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by kiltedguard

I'm going to have to disagree. The Order of Battle for the 28th ID at the time of writing was a mixed division organized around the Regimental Combat Team model. This included 1 Armored Brigade, 1 Cav Squadron, Towed and SP artillery. So it was neither light nor heavy. The lack of detail by the writers isn't a de facto label of "Light Infantry" The US ARMY Vehicle Guide does include M60A1's in the listing of current armor.

Army Organizational History: http://www.history.army.mil/books/Li.../chapter13.htm

28th Infantry NG Harrisburg, Pa. 8 INF 1AR 1Mech

The above show the breakdown for the maneuver battalions as of June 1974...they remained unchanged in 1989. This doesn't include the combat service support battalions, FA, MP, Chem, or signal.

kilted has it right, (as far as IRL is concerned) it would seem that the NG INF Divs were heading to a "Medium" configuration in AOE. I posted the whole PDF in an earlier thread, so I just cut and pasted the part about the ARNG Inf Divs.

'
"The National Guard Infantry Divisions Keep the Old Form
Although the AOE design effort encompassed most of the Army's TOE units active and
reserve, a redesign of the five Army National Guard straight infantry divisions was not part of
AOE planning.4" The 1980s would thus come to an end without the conversion of a notable
segment of the total force. The new 29th Infantry Division (Light), ARNG, which had been
activated in September 1985, was the sole nonmechanized Guard infantry division fully structured
on AOE tables at the close of the decade.
i In October 1983 when the Chief of Staff of the Army approved the basic AOE planning and
design, there were eight divisions in the reserve components, all Army National Guard divisions.
They included the five standard infantry divisions - the 26th, 28th, 38th, 42d, and 47th Infantry
Divisions, ARNG; two armored divisions - the 49th and 50th Armored Divisions, ARNG; and
one mechanized - the 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized), ARNG. Besides the light 29th
Division, one additional reserve division, the 35th Infantry Division (Mechanized), ARNG, was
activated in FY 1985, which brought the reserve component count to ten. 42
Except for the 29th Division, the National Guard nonmechanized infantry divisions lagged
far behind their active component counterparts on the timetable to conversion. With the 10,000-
man light design to undergo certification between 1984-1986 in the 7th Division exercises at Fort
Hunter Liggett, and with controversy attendant on the Army's development of light divisions for
mission use against heavier challenges, no immediate decision was made to convert the National
Guard infantry to the light structure. There were in addition both political and fiscal considerations
at issue. With their numerous community and other obligations to the state governments to which
their units reported, the Guard infantry divisions were reluctant to give up the manpower and
equipment they employed under the old, much larger H-series TOEs. In the end, the funding to
restructure the units and their facilities in hundreds of U.S. cities and towns did not materialize
anyway. 43 Although the Army's emphasis on modernization in the 1980s put resources into both
active and reserve component units under the Total Force Concept, the new 29th Division was the
only light reserve division to be outfitted on a priority timetable.
Facing those realities, the CACDA planners developed a redesign for the five old-style
National Guard infaniry divisions during 1985. Planners recommended changing the H-series
maneuver battalion mix of 8 infantry battalions, 1 tank battalion, and I infantry mechanized
battalion. CAC analysis of several alternatives supported a 6-2-2 mix as having the greatest
flexibility for task organizing in tactical battle. In January 1986, General Wickham approved the
design for planning purposes only. Further work by the Leavenworth force designers included
analysis of combined arms battalion structures but resulted in Pentagon approval in June 1988 of a
heavier National Guard infantry division overall design better suited to European needs and
numbering approximately 16,900 personnel, with standardized battalions instead (Chart 56). The
issue ef the mix of maneuver battalion number and type remained incompletely resolved, with the
preference being a 4-armor, 3-mech, 3-infantry battalion structure (Chart 57). The National Guard Bureau was charged to prepare a transition plan for each individual division to the objective
design. Approval of a final design remained contingent on prospects for programming.44
Consequently, at the close of the 1980s, many of the units of the National Guard standard
infantry divisions remained organized under the old H-series tables. Only a few maneuver
battalions had transitioned to new J-series TOEs. At the end of the decade, the typical H-series
reserve infantry division fielded 3 maneuver brigades and 10-11 maneuver battalions, of which 7
were infantry, 1 or 2 were mechanized infantry, and 1 or 2 were armored; a division artillery of 3
battalions of towed 105-mm. howitzers, and one combined 8-inch self-propelled - 155-mm.
towed howitzer battalion; a division aviation brigade of 2 assault helicopter companies, an attack
helicopter battalion, and a cavalry squadron; a division support command with functional maintenance,
supply and transport, and medical battalions, and an aviation maintenance company; signal, air defense
artillery, and engineer battalions; and military police and chemical companies and a division band."

You might also want to look at this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=4N1...vision&f=false

[kiltedguard]

Originally Posted by Louied

...and military police and chemical companies and a division band."

I wonder if they took The Band....

[Louied]

Originally Posted by kiltedguard

I wonder if they took The Band....

LOL, maybe that's why they were nuked !