TOW's: Antiship Capable?

[Apache6]

-ATGMs that hit a ship will do significant damage, but a single round is not going to sink a warship, considering watertight bulkheads inside the ship and reasonable damage control measures. Same with Tank main gun rounds or even 155mm HE.

- The flip side of that is that Captains of ships are not going to want to risk some of the few remaining Naval assets without VERY good reason.

- Even just turning on a surface searce RADAR might drive off or discourage a ship, do they really want to stay around to find out if you still have been able to scrounge a Seersucker or far more deadly Harboon missile.

- During the Korean war there were several instances of UN (US, Australlian, Canadian and UK) destroyers, cruisers and Battleships 'dueling' with North Korean artillery battalions ashore, including some with Katusya's. The Allied ships, benefiting from air superiority and spotter aircraft routinely neutralized the shore batteries. The NK fire control systems were usually not responsive or accurate enough to hit a moving ship.

[swaghauler]

I had to Necro this thread to point out that AT munitions have finally "gone to sea." The Navy's Cyclone Patrol Ships have been fitted with a special Mid-Ship launcher containing 6 Stinger AA missiles and 2 Quad-Launchers for the Hellfire Longbow laser guided munition (for 8 missiles in total). It also sports two Gun Mounts (one forward, one aft) containing BOTH a 40mm Mark19 Grenade Launcher and a 25mm Chaingun in a "co-axle" arrangement. There are also several mounts for .50 caliber and .30 caliber machineguns situated around the ship. Other upgrades being considered are a 30mm Cannon or twin 25mm Chainguns.

The Cyclones (serving in the Gulf right now) could be an interesting game add. With an overall Length of 55 meters, a Width of 7.6 meters and a draft of 2.3 meters; they are not that big. The crew is 24 enlisted and 4 officers. There are 8 spare berths and she can sail for 2500 nautical miles on her 4 diesels (multifuel).

[The Dark]

With regards to firing TOW over water, FM 23-34 says it can be done. For a scenario like is being discussed here (ship-to-ship), a BGM-71A, BGM-71A-2, or BGM-71A-2A can be fired across 1400 meters of water, and any other type up to BGM-71E over 1100 meters of water.

The weapons I always end up wanting to take for Vistula-like scenarios were the recoilless rifles for discouraging opposing ships (along with GPMGs and/or HMGs) and mortars for support of shore parties.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by The Dark

With regards to firing TOW over water, FM 23-34 says it can be done. For a scenario like is being discussed here (ship-to-ship), a BGM-71A, BGM-71A-2, or BGM-71A-2A can be fired across 1400 meters of water, and any other type up to BGM-71E over 1100 meters of water.

Not to impune a manual from my dear Army -- the BGM-71A or BGM-71A-2 are NOT going to go over that much water without the guide wires hitting the water and shorting out. It was fixed later, but the earlier TOWs are not going to zoom over water for any real distance without going BOOM early. Especially not salt water. Ask an 80s or 90s 11-Hotel.

That said, an aerial shot from a high angle with one of those early TOWs might do it. And anything can be an antiship weapon - - just depends on how you deploy it.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That said, an aerial shot from a high angle with one of those early TOWs might do it. And anything can be an antiship weapon - - just depends on how you deploy it.

Speaking of this, the same FM has a nomogram for calculating what distance can be fired across water based on the altitude above water of the launcher and the target. Mounting a TOW launcher in open space on a bridge tower could give it decent range over water. I'm not sure how much field of view the tripod launchers have and whether you could do a limited drop shot (i.e. keep the missile near the top of the field of view, target near the bottom, and arc it down).

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

And anything can be an antiship weapon - - just depends on how you deploy it.

Agreed. A ship doesn't travel much faster than a tank in combat and is a larger target.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

Agreed. A ship doesn't travel much faster than a tank in combat and is a larger target.

While you can technically use any system on the water, dedicated systems have a few traits that "improvised" systems won't have. Most dedicated Naval systems are "hardened" against both water and shock. A heavy sea state can cause MAJOR damage to a system not prepared for the "jostling" that the seas can cause to equipment. Optics will fail, electronics cease to function and just aiming the weapon can become problematic if the sights cannot be focused on in a rolling sea. Another trait is a sealed delivery system designed to keep just plain sea water from killing both electronics and propellants in a weapons system. A third trait would be the proper positioning of the weapon to prevent damage to the ship. A recoilless rifle does you no good if its backblast blows out all of the superstructure's windows when fired.

Ships systems should (and most do) have a "Stabilization System" like tanks do. The following chart will help you understand what Sea States would add a level of difficulty and what Stabilization would help in those Sea States.

SEA STATE AND STABILIZATION RATES:
Stabilization Type: ......................... Sea State And Description: ..................Difficulty Shift for Non-Stabilized Weapons:
No Stabilization: ............................ (0-2) Calm to Wavelets (up to 0.5m) ................. No Difficulty Shift
Poor Stabilization: .......................... (3-4) Slight to Moderate (0.5m to 2.5m) ............ One Level More Difficult
Fair Stabilization: ........................... (5-6) Moderate to Rough (2.5m to 6m) .............. Two Levels More Difficult
Good Stabilization: ......................... (7) Very Rough/High waves (6m to 9m) ............. Three Levels More Difficult
Excellent Stabilization: .................... (8) Very High Waves (9m to 14m) ..................... Four Levels More Difficult
No Effective Stabilization Available: .. (9) Phenomenal Waves (14m+) ......................... Five Levels More Difficult

Thus a Moderate Sea State could put a crimp in that call for fire support from your deck mounted mortar or recoilless rifle.

Naval Weapons:

Most naval weapons are stabilized but the extent of that stabilization depends on the era the weapon is from and the cost/quality of the installation.

- Most WW2 weapons (like the US battleship's guns) have Poor Stabilization.
- Most 1960's and 1970's era weapons have Fair Stabilization (like the US 5" Gun Mount or the 25mm Mk38 mount).
- Most 1980's and 1990's weapons (Like the OTO-Melara 76.2mm Mk2) have Good Stabilization.
- Most 21st Century weapons (like the newer 30mm, 40mm, and 57mm autocannon) have Excellent Stabilization.

Retrofitted weapons may have a lower level of Stabilization. When the Perry Class Frigates had their Mk13 Launchers decommissioned, the Navy experimented with a modified 5" Gun mount. The mount could only carry the 20 rounds in it and a small magazine of only 200 rounds was all that could be fitted (a standard magazine is 600 rounds). The real "deal-breaker" was that the mount ended up with the equivalent of Poor Stabilization.

This overlooked aspect of naval weapons will help you "customize" the various weapons on any ships you choose to use in Twilight2000.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Noted. Although you don't necessarily have to be on the water to fire at a ship; it is entirely possible to launch an anti-ship missile from a land-based platform and it has actually been done in more than one conflict.