Stoner Weapon System replacement?

[ArmySGT.]

Welsh,

.303 is the British rimmed case of WW2 fame for the Lee Enfields and BREN guns.

I think you mean .30 cartridges and there are many that have that bullet diameter and vary widely on case length and capacity.

I think you are going for 7.62 NATO as your cartridge? A .30 on a battle rifle capacity brass casing being 7.62x51mm vs 30.06 a .30 on a larger capacity case the 7.62x63mm

I can see the reasoning for a .30 caliber battle rifle. .30 was the smallest caliber deemed possible by the U.S. Army Ordnance department that could still drop a charging horse pre-WW1.

Shoots through 30 inches of pine boards, etc.

Having a precise rifle paired with good ammo and a good scope is great but, the reality is that not everyone gets to be a sniper shooting without being detected.

[welsh]

Hey Sgt-
My mistype sorry. I am thinking of .308 cartridge or 7.62 NATO round. My bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO

Had not even been thinking of the .30-06 cartridge.
I can see the advantage of the greater ammo load with the 5.56. I am guessing availability is about the same. But quality?

[kato13]

Personally I go with 6.8mm for rifles and 10mm for pistols as I figure the Morrow logistical system will pretty much start from scratch.

This will make for less of an impact on a society if a teams cache is discovered, by someone with less than pure motives. Anyone who who comes across such ammo would have a much harder time finding weapons to use them when compared to 5.56, 7.62 and 9mm.

Yes they could be re-manufactured, but that would take resources that I would hope would be limited to a settlement and not to marauders.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by welsh

Hey Sgt-
My mistype sorry. I am thinking of .308 cartridge or 7.62 NATO round. My bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO

Had not even been thinking of the .30-06 cartridge.
I can see the advantage of the greater ammo load with the 5.56. I am guessing availability is about the same. But quality?

Ah, Similar dimensions, different SAAMI specifications.

Shooting .308 winchester in your 7.62 NATO battle rifle is possible..... However in older rifles you could run into problems.

.308 Winchester has a CUP pressure of 62,000 pounds whereas, 7.62 NATO is loaded to a CUP pressure of 50,000 pounds.

In 90s vintage M14s or AR-10s with 90s era metallurgy probably not much other than different points of impact due to different velocities.

has been known to bend operating rods, shear extractor pins, and damage bolts of 60's era M14s.

Same can happen shooting heavier bullets. 7.62 NATO uses a 150 grain bullet. .308 Win comes a variety of flavors (aka heavier and lighter bullets). Also sometimes with heavier bullets you get a longer overall case length which creates failure to feed problems in autoloaders.

[welsh]

Hey Sgt-

Thanks for the info. My thinking on this had more to do with the abundance of ammo that might be available but also that there are probably a fair amount of .308 rifles out there. But given the popularity of 5.56 carbines, perhaps that's a wash.

The issue of weight and carrying capacity vs penetration. But what you are pointing out really puts a dent on .308. But they do seem to be growing in popularity in the civilian market.

So you stick with the 5.56? Would not go with a .308 or 7.62? I am thinking more 4th gen rules than 3rd gen.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by welsh

Hey Sgt-

Thanks for the info. My thinking on this had more to do with the abundance of ammo that might be available but also that there are probably a fair amount of .308 rifles out there. But given the popularity of 5.56 carbines, perhaps that's a wash.

The issue of weight and carrying capacity vs penetration. But what you are pointing out really puts a dent on .308. But they do seem to be growing in popularity in the civilian market.

So you stick with the 5.56? Would not go with a .308 or 7.62? I am thinking more 4th gen rules than 3rd gen.

Two things you want; a lot of bullets, and water.

Seven magazines for an M-14 (20x7) 140 rounds. Seven magazines for an M-16A2 (30x7) 210 rounds.

The M-14 does more damage, definitely. The thing is more ammunition is expended to force the other guy to keep his head down or flee then actually hit them. Suppressive fire.

I like the 7.62 NATO blasts through small trees, shatters brickwork, busts car engine blocks, the armor piercing ammo blows through soviet vests and penetrates 1/4 plate..... Lots to love.

I just focus the teams around 5.56mm and 9mm because of the abundance and magazine compatibility. I also revise the 20kg load to reflect the Team position. Absolutely no sense that a driver would be the Machine gunner and a mechanic carries a Dragon ATGM.

[ArmySGT.]

From the rule books I toss out a couple of weapons..... The Stoner system, the Mac-10, the HK 69, the M60. The rifles and carbines are replaced by the M16A1 or M16A2 or the M4/M4A1. The Uzi meets the SMG needs. The MAG does everything the M60 does and is the coaxial on all MP vehicles anyway. The M79 is fielded instead of the HK69 and is necessary for the rocket grapnel in the mountaineering pack. The FN Minimi (SAW) or the Ultimax 100 fit for the Automatic rifle role.

[bobcat]

as for the problems that plagued the Stoner in its early development most of those were because of the same crappy ammo production that plagued most 5.56mm weapons of that era. as for changing caliber i doubt there are any weapons systems in any other caliber that are even half a capable. please someone correct me if i'm wrong because i would love to find a system like the stoner in .308.

[RandyT0001]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

From the rule books I toss out a couple of weapons..... The Stoner system, the Mac-10, the HK 69, the M60. The rifles and carbines are replaced by the M16A1 or M16A2 or the M4/M4A1. The Uzi meets the SMG needs. The MAG does everything the M60 does and is the coaxial on all MP vehicles anyway. The M79 is fielded instead of the HK69 and is necessary for the rocket grapnel in the mountaineering pack. The FN Minimi (SAW) or the Ultimax 100 fit for the Automatic rifle role.

When running the 3rd edition I dropped the Mac-10, the HK 69, the Stoner rifle and carbine. Like you I switched to M16, M16A1, M16A2, M4 variants for standard rifle/carbine issue. I replaced the M60 with Stoner M207 for the SAW/auto rifle roles because of common ammunition. I kept the Mag 58 as a heavy base of fire MG. M79's and M203 were the grenade launchers issued.