TL D Shotguns.....

[.45cultist]

As I reduce the TL of Cooperville, TL D allows lever or bolt action rifles, pump shotguns and semiauto pistols. M1911A1 for pistol, P17/M30 for rifles, a lot of BP revolvers and caplock rifles. Would they build the M97 or M12 shotguns or would these be M870's? I know they can repair modern stuff to some extant, but copying?

[RandyT0001]

As far as I am concerned Cooperville can copy, redesign, build and repair any firearm available before 1960 that is not specified in a higher tech bracket. Cooperville at tech level D can build the bolt action 1903, the M1 Garrand, even the M14 but not the AK-47 assault rifle. They can build the Thompson SMG or the MP5 SMG but not the M-4 carbine. Shotguns, both pump and auto, built from 1880's until fully automatic versions appear are permissible. Cooperville cannot build the bazooka nor the 57mm recoilless rifle even though both were built in WW2 because those items (and the AK-47 assault rifle) are listed as tech level C.

Tech level D+ communities are fairly rare, occuring only 17% of encounters. As such they need more development than the village of 100 using breech loading, cap "Sharps" rifles.

In the end it is your game, as long as you can find a reasonable explanation it fits.

[.45cultist]

Most of the factory makes caplock, blackpowder cartridge weapons. Of the ammunition, paper shot shells are the most numerous and cheaper. The Tech Level is to meet the Team halfway, the next TL will require the team and community overcome the points brought up in the "Cooperville Part I" thread. Also it allows the team to be deceived as to when they are active.

[RandyT0001]

So Centerville is at the begining of Tech level D in development. In that case I suggest the most primitive version of the pump shotgun, the M97. In addition, since Centerville is just beginning Tech level D the pistols such as Hugo Borchardt's C-93, Mauser's C-96 and Browning's M1900 are better selections than the Colt M1911 or Luger's P-08.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

(and the AK-47 assault rifle) are listed as tech level C.

The AK-47 is tech level C? A rifle was designed using existing technology from before 1945 and is constructed in desert caves today? Something is very wrong there.

[RandyT0001]

Yes, in 4th ed MP, assault rifles are tech level C. Assault rifles are rifles that have selective fire modes that use an intermediate caliber or sized cartridge between rifle and pistol and have detachable box magazines. This includes the M1 Carbine, the AK-47 and the StG 44. In addition to assault rifles, radar, recoilless rifles, napalm, stabilization of vehicle mounted weapons and band tracks for armored fighting vehicles are included despite their development slightly before, during, or slightly after WW2. Page 210 in 4th Ed.

[mmartin798]

I guess they had to make some distinction, but the StG 44 can date a good deal of it's R&D to the 1920's. Not saying I agree with the tech level, but I understand the need for a easy to describe distinction.

[kato13]

I have not seen the rules yet (still hoping it shows up at my FLGS), but I sounds to me like people may want to use something similar to a plus and minus designation to the Tech levels.

Perhaps

C+ > C > C-

So you can have a little more flexibility in how things are described tech wise. Generally they are the same era but minus comes first then regular and the plus are at the tail end of things.

Guns, Guns, Guns kinda has something similar as when you are nearing the end of an era you can spend a lot more and get basic models (prototypes) from the next era.


A am assuming it goes F->E->D->C->B->A in order of increasing technology. If it goes the other way it is a little weird but still works.

[mmartin798]

I guess I am just grousing about the seeming arbitrariness of the lines. While the StG 44 is older than the HK MP5, by virtue of the size of the round the StG 44 is a higher tech level than the HK MP5. Even though the StG 44 has an arguably simpler gas action versus the MP5's roller delayed action. Unless the MP5 referenced above is a different MP5

[Project_Sardonicus]

In the 1930s there were a bunch of workable assault rifle prototypes or actually in production combining the Maxim automatic system with a less powerful rifle bullet. From the Tokarev automatic rifle [ingeniously using a Japanese rifle bullet designed to have less recoil for their soldiers], to the Winchester which I believe was the standard issue rifle of the Texas Rangers. Indeed the Soviet SMGs of the time that used the Tokarev [about double the velocity of a 9mm or .45 bullet], with better range and ability to penetrate early body armour could be seen as proto assault rifles.

So it's not so much the technology. Basically any society that has mastered basic precision engineering [19th century] can build an assault rifle [if they haven't mastered it they'll have a lot of one armed soldiers]

The reason these weapons weren't adopted earlier is conservatisim and patronising attitudes in the general staff. Soldiers with machine guns with shoot up all their ammo in 5 minutes or you'll have to give them hundreds of rounds and they'll use them for poaching. In the 1956 Suez crisis Royal Marines carried out the first ever helicopter assault, armed with bolt action rifles.

If the future society builds one it won't be a refined hitech material M4 or Tavor. It'll probably be like the STG44 or the Kalashnikov simple, reliable possibly a bit bulkier and less accurate.

The real question is can you provide enough ammunition. Now if you've got a dedicated factory churning out 1000s of bullets a day then the assault rifle is a game changer. If you're loading them by hand it's a liability.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

So Centerville is at the begining of Tech level D in development. In that case I suggest the most primitive version of the pump shotgun, the M97. In addition, since Centerville is just beginning Tech level D the pistols such as Hugo Borchardt's C-93, Mauser's C-96 and Browning's M1900 are better selections than the Colt M1911 or Luger's P-08.

There is a better chance of an M1911 or two available as patterns, along with M97's(original or Chinese clones).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

There is a better chance of an M1911 or two available as patterns, along with M97's(original or Chinese clones).

The slide for an M1911A1 needs machining operations by a reamer, horizontal mill, and knee mill. It is actually pretty intensive labor wise.

In WW2, thousands were generated because factories were built with 100 mills in a row. A machinist made one cut, then passed the slide along to the next machinist, all as a Ford style assembly line.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The slide for an M1911A1 needs machining operations by a reamer, horizontal mill, and knee mill. It is actually pretty intensive labor wise.

In WW2, thousands were generated because factories were built with 100 mills in a row. A machinists made one cut, then passed the slide along to the next machinist, all as a Ford style assembly line.

Possible doesn't mean easy, or cheap. There will be other lower tech options. But this gives the Team machinist who can appreciate the fusion forge, laser mills, what ever else a "Starnaman" depot might have. Also enough educated folks to involve a University and new obstacles to overcome. I enjoy the debate and info of these threads. I need to get the notes on the rolls for community and it's stats.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The AK-47 is tech level C? A rifle was designed using existing technology from before 1945 and is constructed in desert caves today? Something is very wrong there.

Stamped steel.

You need high quality, high ductility sheet metal. So that requires pretty good metallurgy and steel smelting techniques......

This then requires multiple, multi-ton, swage rollers. These progressively squeezing the almost molten steel thinner and thinner before it can cool down to much.

Then this requires highly skilled tool and die makers...... Machines with a minimum knowledge of trigonometry. They make the forms (dies) for shaping parts.

Then this requires multi ton press and press brakes....... These smash the segments of sheet metal into shape. Whether this is a magazine or a receiver.

Can you do this in a cave in Pakistan? Yes, one at a time, hammered, shaped, filed. Production rate though? One a month, every two weeks?

Factory with all the above.... Hundreds per hour.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Stamped steel.

You need high quality, high ductility sheet metal. So that requires pretty good metallurgy and steel smelting techniques......

This then requires multiple, multi-ton, swage rollers. These progressively squeezing the almost molten steel thinner and thinner before it can cool down to much.

Then this requires highly skilled tool and die makers...... Machines with a minimum knowledge of trigonometry. They make the forms (dies) for shaping parts.

Then this requires multi ton press and press brakes....... These smash the segments of sheet metal into shape. Whether this is a magazine or a receiver.

Can you do this in a cave in Pakistan? Yes, one at a time, hammered, shaped, filed. Production rate though? One a month, every two weeks?

Factory with all the above.... Hundreds per hour.

Of course the assault rifle or any automatic weapon has one huge disadvantage.

Even if you train your troops to be disciplined in their shooting and conserve ammo.

You still need to give them a couple of hundred rounds a piece to be much use.

Bullets which can be used for shooting the wild life, their officers or just swopped with poorly equipped enemies for romantic favours from their ladies or booze.

It was the bane of the old USSR.

So all too often even quite sophisticated nations have lumbered their armies with yesterday's technology. There were workable commercially available automatic rifles in the 1940s yet pretty much every nation started with a bolt action dinosaur.

It's not hard to imagine a postapocalyptic handing out to it's militia single shot needle rifles.

And even those who give out assault rifles, only handing out 2 clips until the battle actually kicks off.

[ArmySGT.]

I personally take issue with the tech levels...

I think they make to much possible at lower levels.

A should be anything that takes a computer to run it or manufacture it.

Such as a Fire Control System (FCS) on a modern (1990s) Main Battle Tank or the Computer Numerically Controlled (CNC) automated mill or lathe.

This a some advanced plastics like polymers, also lightweight alloys .

This and computer repair.

Tech level B should be able to repair solid state or vacuum tube tech, right up to silicon wafers and CPU mother boards.