OT: Gun Question

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I aint got a grand for this so...the .22 option will have to work. Any sites you would recommend for the "clones"? I have never really looked into this much,

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

Pauls suggestion eems a good one -but availability is probably S/R

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

[jester]

I ask you this,

What is the purpose of your buying the rifle?

I had a girlfreind who was a Nasty Guardsgirl...oh that sounds just so wrong. She was doing the OCS thing and while waiting she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with. Ah she was so sweet and cute I didn't laugh at her to badly. Since there was little point to buying your own rubber dummy rifle for training. Especialy since they cost half as much as the real thing.

So, what is your purpose for buying a "rifle." Is it to practice and learn or relearn to shoot? Or is it to also practice the whole taking it down and reassembling it thing as well? Or is it just for the whole cool factor?

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory. But, if that is what you want to do, then go with the real thing, IF you can find one, even the generic variants which some are more than reasonable. Or do what I am doing for my Cali legal ARs, buying the lowers and then the uppers. The downside, it is impossible to find the uppers right now, as well as it bewing hard to find the fully assembled ones. Folks are buying up the rifles, their components and the ammo like it is crazy as they expect a new ban to hit with this adminsitration.

IF it is shooting and honing your skills, then Get yourself a Ruger 10/22 and master the basics with an autoloader, or even a Marlin or AR-7. Just master the basics, trigger and breath control, sighting with proper sight alignment and then work your way up to the shooting positions, and even magazine changes with the rapid or even sustained fire. A benefit to the .22 is 500 rounds is between 12 and 20 bucks, for a AR class you can't get that much for under 300.

Thats just my two centavos.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

...she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with.

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by jester

I had a girlfreind who was a Nasty Guardsgirl...oh that sounds just so wrong.

And yet soooo right at the same time....

:P

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

Been there! In my experience M16s are nothing more than plastic toys designed to fall apart at the first sign of stress. Mind you the ones we were issued were at least 20 years old and seen service in the Vietnam era.
Most could be grasped by stock and butt and twisted, sights bent waaaay out of alignment and the odd bent barrel to boot. One of the battalions best shots once had to qualify with one and at 200 metres his sights had to be on the far right side of the target in the lane to his right, just so he could graze the left side of his own!

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.


Kalos, if you're looking to improve your accuracy, there are several methods of "dry firing" that don't require a range, ammunition, or even a rifle! A broomstick with a couple of nails in it for sights, a wall, pencil and paper and a friend to mark your "shots" is all that's needed. Soviets trained their Olympic marksmen this way for years (although I think they might have actually used rifles rather than sticks)!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.

I've said the same things many, many times on this forum and the old one. Oh how I would love to own an SLR. Fantastic rifle. Man-sized target, 600m, SLR that I've zeroed, I guarantee you a hit.

Glad we share a love of the SLR Legbreaker.

[Legbreaker]

There's just something so...."right" about the SLR. As long as it's been maintained properly and has those wonderful double leaf sights at the rear. Standard rear leaf is ok for combat, but for real shooting it's a bit on the wide side. Still, I managed ok for somebody who spent most of their time carrying an M60.

The F88 Steyr never felt as good to me. Its a fine weapon, and much easier to carry mile after mile, but it's shorter length, lighter round and odd balance didn't exactly instil the greatest confidence. On the plus side, I did fit a WWI SMLE bayonet to mine once. Damn that long blade makes it look mean and certainly scared the young'uns!

[jester]

You dirty bugger!

As for the 16s, well come on the A1s had ALOT of issues! The couple times I fired them they certainly felt like they were lacking too. But the A2 is more robust. As for the whole clobbering someone with one, hey it'll do. I'll worry about it shattering after I have bashed mohameds brains in, heck, a rock will do the job too if the 16 shatters.

As for the SLR, I BOUGHT ONE! I love it, I just wish it had adjustments for windage.

And another trick I still use for the offhand is the trick we were punished with in bootcamp. Take the rifle hold it in your shoulder, then add your cartridge belt on the front of the barrel and hold the rifle steady with the added weight, then drop your forward hand holding it only in place with the hand on the pistol grip. Then when you add the forward hand and remove the belt it is so much easier to control. It certainly reduces the "crazy 8"

Dry firing has its purpose. It teaches you trigger control and one must learn and know their trigger if they want make the good controlled shots.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And yet soooo right at the same time....

:P

Been there! In my experience M16s are nothing more than plastic toys designed to fall apart at the first sign of stress. Mind you the ones we were issued were at least 20 years old and seen service in the Vietnam era.
Most could be grasped by stock and butt and twisted, sights bent waaaay out of alignment and the odd bent barrel to boot. One of the battalions best shots once had to qualify with one and at 200 metres his sights had to be on the far right side of the target in the lane to his right, just so he could graze the left side of his own!

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.


Kalos, if you're looking to improve your accuracy, there are several methods of "dry firing" that don't require a range, ammunition, or even a rifle! A broomstick with a couple of nails in it for sights, a wall, pencil and paper and a friend to mark your "shots" is all that's needed. Soviets trained their Olympic marksmen this way for years (although I think they might have actually used rifles rather than sticks)!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by jester

I just wish it had adjustments for windage.

They do!
See those screws in the rear sight?

The front sight controls the 'fine' elevation, being screwed in or out of its sight base, as warranted. The rear sight, a peep-type, is adjustable for windage, via (2) opposing screws, and for gross elevation adjustments(100-600 meters, usually), by sliding on its ramped base.

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/fal.htm
If those screws aren't there, you don't have a real one....

[jester]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

I think we used them twice, once for bayonet training in Boot Camp and the other time was swim qual.

As for her, they were doing some kind of formation stuff like wedge, echelon right and left and skirmishers and all that and they only had enough dummy rifles for half of them. She also wanted to get the feel for it. Come on she is a woman, and they do feel the need to accessorize.

As for stuff breaking, hell, I had a SAW stock break on me once as did I the bipod. Stufff happens man.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by headquarters

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

There's also the Tech-Sights option, which just lets you put M16-style sights on a 10/22.

Originally Posted by jester

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory.

Respectfully disagree. You can practice magazine changes and failure drills in your living room just as well as you can do dry fire practice. No, it's not live range time, but it can and will build the muscle memory for all the basic weapon manipulations.

- C.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

There's also the Tech-Sights option, which just lets you put M16-style sights on a 10/22.


Respectfully disagree. You can practice magazine changes and failure drills in your living room just as well as you can do dry fire practice. No, it's not live range time, but it can and will build the muscle memory for all the basic weapon manipulations.

- C.

Yes you can do those things, but how many people have the time? And is it more practical to purchase a generic AR so you can do that? Or more practical to get something you can really afford and afford to shoot?

I am saying the failure drill and mag change can be learned or relearned in a shorter amount of time than to get the basics down.