Aircraft/Armor Surplus Storage

[raketenjagdpanzer]

You know you say "Oh he'd only have WWII stuff and no guns..."

Consider this: even taking that into consideration, his "garage" is a treasure trove of a machine shop. It'd be a fine prize for any faction to take, be it civgov, milgov, New America, MexiCubanSoviet invaders, whatever. He's got tooling, lifts, lathes, etc. up there to keep an armored brigade repaired and running.

Now regarding the collection itself? Fine, He's only got up to Korean War era stuff, and no ammo. Taking it as fact (because it is a fact) that he's got the machine shop to do so, what's stopping him from pulling turrets off of tanks and hey, presto, armored prime movers? Attaching dozer blades and other things, and now you've got armored engineering vehicles, vital to combat engineer work and reconstruction? How about turning those old tanks into personnel carriers? Mortar carriers? A Sherman could shrug off MG42 rounds, why not RPK slugs? Same for his various half-tracks.

So you consider his 30-40 vehicles that he "would have" during T2k's timeline, we'll be really conservative and say 20 can be made operational, and hey presto that's 20 personnel carriers or prime movers, now suddenly you can put a brigade strength infantry unit on tracks versus walking everywhere, or riding in relatively thin-skinned vehicles.

[Olefin]

Sgt - first off I am not moving the goalposts

Timelines

V1 - he still gets almost every tank and vehicle he had that was made pre-1970 that was in his collection and even some of the Soviet Stuff - Egypt still becomes a NATO ally and gets rid of its Soviet stuff, Israel still captures a bunch in the various wars they had

V2 - he gets the same plus even some Soviet stuff he could have obtained from the former East Germans and the Yugoslav remnants

2013 - he gets his whole collection including the Scud missile

no one is moving the goalposts - the posts move because of the events in the timeline change

as for munitions - hmm lets see MilGov decides to make use of his collection - well there is where the munitions come from as one possibility - another is that a machine shop (which per canon are capable of turning out mortar shells and the like) make a small amount of solid shot shells for the vehicles

or he obtains munitions the old fashioned way - he buys them pre-war - maybe only enough to give one basic ammo load or less for the vehicles with live barrels - and he had lots of storage room to keep them in

and for our info most of the tanks and artillery pieces didnt have live barrels - so the Stuarts and PzkII and Pzk IV you seem to obsess about and the Lee and the British WWII tanks arent going anywhere as tanks - but they sure could be modified to be turned into gun platforms for other weapons for the US Army or turned into tracked gun vehicles instead of wheeled ones -

and anyone who uses a M203 against the tanks that he did have with live barrels is going to end up dead

you might want to actually research his collection like I did and find out what worked and what didnt - and what only needed a .50 to be fully operational like most of his APC's

and per canon - by 2000 anything with a gun on it and tracks was being used as tank in the US by the various groups fighting

thats pretty clear that if it had a turret, a gun and could move they used it

plus keep in mind that the main marauder threat is a bunch of guys armed with shotguns, civilian rifles and if they were really lucky some M-16's they might have looted out of a National Guard armory - none of which have a hope in heck of hurting anyone in a tank

and again - per canon - from the Texas module - even the Mexican Army by 2000 was mostly foot infantry with rifles - you would be lucky if a whole unit had one or two anti-tank weapons of any sort with them -

this isnt charging Soviet Division Cuba with a bunch of original production Shermans and Stuarts

this is taking on marauders and Mexican infantry who the only thing they can do against a tank is hope they get close enough to use a Molotov on it or maybe manage to blow a tread off with dynamite

and frankly any commander who had working tanks and APC's and artillery pieces sitting right there and didnt use them when he had no tanks of any sort and no armored vehicles in his unit is not one whose men will stay with him long

[kato13]

Given the penchant the game designers had putting odd equipment in odd places, I think the Littlefield collection fits nicely. They have British and German units stay in Canada. They have an Alaskan Invasion by the Soviets. They have a US division get "lost" by 800 kilometers.

When I played I tried to give the 49th some color by adding 24 DUKW transports which were "requisitioned" when one of their brigades was near the Wisconsin Dells (where they are used for recreational touring).

Personally I would give Littlefield a little more eccentric personality (and more money and power). Maybe add a little John DuPont and Howard Hughes. Make the collection an obsession that leads to grey and black market deals.

Once you enter that world you find corrupt quartermasters, Insurgents who capture a single vehicle (and have no support for it), a dictator's cousin looking for a little cash, plus anything that would be above board.

You have to make Littlefield crazy to have the collection armed before TDM, but if you throw in a little of DuPont's or Hughes paranoia it might work. Personally I would not have the collection armed until "Wojo" type plants spring up.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I should also point out the matter of vehicles that 40mm rounds can take out - the M1 (of any stripe) is still vulnerable in almost all arcs to RPG-7 fire. When they were taken out with them in OIF the Army (and Marines) didn't pull them off the line and mothball them.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I should also point out the matter of vehicles that 40mm rounds can take out - the M1 (of any stripe) is still vulnerable in almost all arcs to RPG-7 fire. When they were taken out with them in OIF the Army (and Marines) didn't pull them off the line and mothball them.

Notably because the insurgent tank hunting practice was to attempt to overwhelm the tank with volley fire expending 20-30 RPGs some with recently supplied ChiCom and Russian tandem warheads. Those tanks weren't lost or out of action long. I will concede that they were put out of action temporarily and tank crews killed or maimed permanently. Insurgent RPG gunners got lucky hitting hatches from on top. Tanks immobilized because multiple RPGS were used to destroy the drive sprocket (bogie?). Some were lost to simply packing the road with several artillery shells filled set to command detonate. Those RPGS did shut some M1s down but, only just by hits to the gunners sights, commanders visor blocks, etc. It takes 20 to a 100 men and near or completely suicidal dedication.

That also brought out the T.U.S.K. program.

If you can find an instance where an RPG-7 standard round penetrated the hull through the armor and not a more vulnerable point like a vision block or weapon sight I would genuinely like to read it.

[Olefin]

The shop had the ability to weld armor plate - I used to work for a company that produced military vehicles - i.e. the M88, the M109, the Bradley, etc..

you need special equipment and training to be able to weld heavy duty armor that miltary vehicles use - and I worked for a company that builds heavy construction equipment - plus that shop had equipment that could easily handle a tank turret or tank body -

and we used to qualify our welders to work on armor - the qualifications you need for working on construction equipment is not what you need to properly weld a heavy armored vehicle together

as to a lack of diesel - well thats why the military converted their vehicles to run on methanol and ethanol - so most likely they would do it here

as for lack of tank transports - have a feeling that the US military still has them and they could use them to move those tanks to where they are needed - and they run on methanol and ethanol too

yes those tanks are vulnerable to those rounds - and so are Bradley's, M113's, Bufords, LAV-25's, etc.. - and I highly doubt that MilGov has parked all those vehicles just in case someone has an M203 HEDP round on them

yes it has the potential to penetrate that steel at 150 meters range - whats the effective range of a .50 caliber machine gun on those grenadiers? and thats if they even have those rounds by 2000 in any quantity at all let alone actual RPG's

and I would rather have a tank to fight in that was designed as a tank than converted bank armored cars - which per canon are being used as armored vehicles by MilGov, CivGov and New Amerca

if they are issuing Peacekeepers to the 49th to make up for lost tanks then I bet they would rather have actual tanks instead no matter what their vintage than a Peacekeeper

Heck they are using M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle's as tanks then they really dont care much what they have for tanks

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

The shop had the ability to weld armor plate - I used to work for a company that produced military vehicles - i.e. the M88, the M109, the Bradley, etc..
you need special equipment and training to be able to weld heavy duty armor that miltary vehicles use - and I worked for a company that builds heavy construction equipment - plus that shop had equipment that could easily handle a tank turret or tank body -
and we used to qualify our welders to work on armor - the qualifications you need for working on construction equipment is not what you need to properly weld a heavy armored vehicle together

The formula isn’t a mystery or super secret knowledge. Let’t not pretend it is.

Originally Posted by Olefin

as to a lack of diesel - well thats why the military converted their vehicles to run on methanol and ethanol - so most likely they would do it here

That is one of the failures of the T2K setting. Now they probably get the idea from the M35 2 ½ which has a multi-fuel engine. That doesn’t mean it can run on pure ethanol or methanol. The fuel mix for a M35 still must be greater than 50% diesel, kerosene, crank case oil to lubricate the pistons. Pure ethanol would seize the pistons very fast. The only other vehicle that would run would be the turbine in an M1 Abrams until the alcohol destroyed any gaskets and lines.

The brewing fuel bit only works for gasoline motors for a short time, again alcohol attacks those gaskets and lines not formulated against its corrosive effects.

It is a major handwave for the entirety of the story or there would be few or no military vehicles at all without oil production and refining to get diesel on the market.

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for lack of tank transports - have a feeling that the US military still has them and they could use them to move those tanks to where they are needed - and they run on methanol and ethanol too

For one, they do not run on methanol and ethanol except it the T2K universe. Trains are out since railyards are a strategic target on their own and typically in a large urban area another target of strategic nuclear weapons. Civilian lowboys could move around APCs and light armor, it is going to take a HET to move an M1 with any efficiency. I would say some are around, these are a support vehicle and some are going to make it through the tactical nukes destroying rear area marshalling yards and forward support battalions. These burn a lot of fuel though. These are also valuable as transport for any and everything else. Escorted HETs on MSR Tampa between Scania and BIAP with tons of anything and everything like sack concrete, concertina wire, plus pallets of sandbags. They wouldn’t go on ethanol or methanol though.

Originally Posted by Olefin

yes those tanks are vulnerable to those rounds - and so are Bradley's, M113's, Bufords, LAV-25's, etc.. - and I highly doubt that MilGov has parked all those vehicles just in case someone has an M203 HEDP round on them

All the modern vehicles you name have things like spall liners, fire suppression systems, and ammo compartmentalization in their favor.

Originally Posted by Olefin

yes it has the potential to penetrate that steel at 150 meters range - whats the effective range of a .50 caliber machine gun on those grenadiers? and thats if they even have those rounds by 2000 in any quantity at all let alone actual RPG's

This is the wrong thread to go into infantry anti armor tactics but, having a .50 isn’t going to do them much good. A tank without infantry protecting it is a dead tank.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and I would rather have a tank to fight in that was designed as a tank than converted bank armored cars - which per canon are being used as armored vehicles by MilGov, CivGov and New America

If they are using bank armored cars then those guys are pants on head retarded to start with. The best possible use is as scouts or convoy escorts. These do not have the armor to be anything more than the lightest battle taxi that would carry infantry forward and drop them off 500 to a 1000 meters from the objective.
Another writers fiction that has somehow gained traction.

Originally Posted by Olefin

if they are issuing Peacekeepers to the 49th to make up for lost tanks then I bet they would rather have actual tanks instead no matter what their vintage than a Peacekeeper

If the 49th is using Peacekeepers this explains how they lost their tanks to begin with. It is all for the story though, so that is the way it has to be, realistic or not.

[Olefin]

I agree with you Kato - and Raketenjagdpanzer has a big point too - just that shop of his, which he would have had no matter what the timeline, would have been invaluable

just imagine - its 2000 and you have a fully manned (his techs weree as dedicated as he was after all) and operational tank repair depot that can take a tank that is basically a pile of junk and make it operational again

and there sits MilGov units with all kinds of tanks and armored vehicles with issues that need to be fixed - its a marriage made in heaven

and I could easily see him obtaining stuff once the war started with various bribes if not beforhand - especially if he saw how the world was getting pre-TDM and figured it might be a damn good idea to have some munitions to arm his collection

[ArmySGT.]

Again, we are back to where we are not going to agree.

A U.S. government that provides HE munitions to a millionaire eccentric with a militaria fetish.

A machine shop that can be replicated anywhere there is a shop that services heavy construction equipment. The only thing that sets it a part is some of the skill sets of the technicians and the manuals available. Saying that though, heavy equipment mechanics typically made their start in military service.

Diversion of resources to make munitions for an obsolete caliber with in a multi-front global conflict.

No, diesel to put these into action, let along move them by rail, or tractor trailer to near the marshaling area.

All the timelines with a strong Communist Bloc and worldwide brushfire wars of proxy between NATO and the Soviet Union.

A M203 High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) has the potential to penetrate 2 inches (50mm) into Rolled Homogenous Steel (RHA) at zero degrees deflection. One per fire team. Now look over the armor thickness on these relics and see how long they will last against the lightest of anti-armor weapons.

Killing tanks with handweapons like molotovs, burning sulphur, satchel charges, dropping a building on them isn't that difficult once you drive the supporting infantry off. Chechnya taught the Russian Army that lesson with the loss of T-80s to underscore the point.

I am utterly unconvinced.

How ever my interest is post apocalyptic genre, not WW3. So I only care about solid, plausible explanations without a confluence of preposterous circumstance.

[ArmySGT.]

Sorry, skipped over your post replying to others so here goes.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

You know you say "Oh he'd only have WWII stuff and no guns..."

I do. For two reasons, first because when the Soviet Union collapsed in our real world timeline of 09 November 1989 the little wars happening all over the world especially in Africa, South America, and South East Asia drastically reduced in size and intensity. Those wars were fueled by money and weapons from mostly NATO (primarily the U.S., I admit that) and the USSR mostly to preserve or limit the other factions influence in the area.
With a strong USSR and Warsaw Pact still in existence those wars never stop or lower their intensity. The Pact allies like Cuba, North Korea, Angola, Venezuela don’t really decline or stop their military misadventures regionally or globally. For this reason I assert there really isn’t much in the way of military surplus vehicles or artillery because some place, at some time, somebody is using this stuff trying to kill someone else. What would not be acceptable first line equipment in Europe for the coming WW3 in mostly effective somewhere that either side isn’t using that sophisticated equipment or fighting Kursk level pitched battles.
I keep iterating that the surplus will be WW2 and Korea as though they are easy to operate and could be effective in some situations these are now vulnerable to the least effective of anti armor weapons like the 40mm grenade. That makes spending money and diverting resources to these as fighting vehicles decidedly less worthwhile.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Consider this: even taking that into consideration, his "garage" is a treasure trove of a machine shop. It'd be a fine prize for any faction to take, be it civgov, milgov, New America, MexiCubanSoviet invaders, whatever. He's got tooling, lifts, lathes, etc. up there to keep an armored brigade repaired and running.

It isn’t unique. Anywhere that has a machine shop for repair of heavy construction equipment has the multi ton hoists, lathes, mills, and the large toolsets to work on these things. Literally, every county, multiple in every state everywhere there is a Department of Transportation. Additionally, any dealership that sells heavy construction equipment such as Caterpillar, Case, or John Deere has a repair bay with all the same stuff. The only thing unique about Mr. Littlefield’s shop is some of the unique expertise and the manuals available. I can think of four or five places in Pueblo down there that would all escape the nuclear exchange and would only need electricity.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Now regarding the collection itself? Fine, He's only got up to Korean War era stuff, and no ammo. Taking it as fact (because it is a fact) that he's got the machine shop to do so, what's stopping him from pulling turrets off of tanks and hey, presto, armored prime movers?

Prime movers are used to tow artillery in poor terrain where there is a risk of counter battery fire or bombing by tactical aircraft. Depends on if there is artillery to be towed to start with, then if saddling a unit with a cantankerous beast of a machine that has no spare parts is worth the effort.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Attaching dozer blades and other things, and now you've got armored engineering vehicles, vital to combat engineer work and reconstruction? How about turning those old tanks into personnel carriers? Mortar carriers? A Sherman could shrug off MG42 rounds, why not RPK slugs? Same for his various half-tracks.

There is a big difference between combat engineering and reconstruction. Combat engineering vehicles are either put up obstacles to slow, channel or stop an enemy advance or trying to tear down the other guy’s defenses. This is all done while being fired upon as both sides are in contact. Only the most heavily armored are expected to survive this like a M728. Even then, a mass effort is in place just for that one combat engineering vehicle. Infantry are screening to counter enemy infantry, the smoke unit is pumping out hectares of smoke, artillery is firing at known enemy concentration and enemy held road junctions, tacair and air superiority is overhead. The enemy is going to pour artillery onto that combat engineering vehicle just to prevent a breakthrough.
As to conversions, mortar carriers, sure those only need to be armored enough to survive counter battery fire up to 152mm or 155mm detonating at 50 meters. Those don’t get close enough to the infantry battle line to be threatened by AT weapons. As to personnel carriers, only in the sense as the battle taxi like an M113; protecting the infantry from small arms and shrapnel and bring them within 500 to 1000 meters of the objective while attempting to support the infantry dismounted movement with long range heavy machinegun fire. Expect to lose them though. When the enemy is in range so are you. Some of these would be vulnerable to 14.5 KPV and certainly 23mm ZPUs in a ground role, those weapons outranging the M2HB.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

So you consider his 30-40 vehicles that he "would have" during T2k's timeline, we'll be really conservative and say 20 can be made operational, and hey presto that's 20 personnel carriers or prime movers, now suddenly you can put a brigade strength infantry unit on tracks versus walking everywhere, or riding in relatively thin-skinned vehicles.

No, you don’t have anywhere near a Brigade strength and only close to the strength of ONE mechanized infantry company all the while diverting resources that could have better supplied a Brigade strength unit with fuel, ammunition, and support weapons.

Mr. Littlefield’s collection can best serve in a supporting role with guard or militia units guarding seaports, airports, water purification plants etc. where they would not be in direct battle with troops or modern munitions and the activity wouldn’t be causing breakdowns daily.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Army Sgt., if we started poking holes in t2k's realism issues by the end of the day we'd have an aperture grille, not a solid peace.

Olefin's suggesting, and I'm suggesting "This could be a neat thing". Nobody's going to drive to your house and scribble in "...AND THE JACQUES LITTLEFIELD COLLECTION!" in your copy of Howling Wilderness.

I used to be like you, I'd get worked up when someone said lifting demi-human level limits from AD&D was a good idea. But here's the thing: to all discussions about RPGs, attach "...at my table." whether you're arguing for or against. And then I quit because writing 40000 words over a course of weeks in a forum about xyz issue is a waste of time and effort. You're not going to change. I'm not going to change.

There's plenty of logical reasons to include Littlefield's collection in a consideration of arms and armor in the US, post Exchange. There's plenty of reasons not to. At the end of the day do it or don't do it. The whole goddamn game is rife with plot and believability holes.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Army Sgt., if we started poking holes in t2k's realism issues by the end of the day we'd have an aperture grille, not a solid peace.

Olefin's suggesting, and I'm suggesting "This could be a neat thing". Nobody's going to drive to your house and scribble in "...AND THE JACQUES LITTLEFIELD COLLECTION!" in your copy of Howling Wilderness.

I used to be like you, I'd get worked up when someone said lifting demi-human level limits from AD&D was a good idea. But here's the thing: to all discussions about RPGs, attach "...at my table." whether you're arguing for or against. And then I quit because writing 40000 words over a course of weeks in a forum about xyz issue is a waste of time and effort. You're not going to change. I'm not going to change.

There's plenty of logical reasons to include Littlefield's collection in a consideration of arms and armor in the US, post Exchange. There's plenty of reasons not to. At the end of the day do it or don't do it. The whole goddamn game is rife with plot and believability holes.

I am just going to stick to the topic. I am not upset that someone doesn't agree with me.

I don't care if you want Panzers or Shermans in your T2k game because you think these are sexy. What I like about T2k and other post apocalyptic games is the realism..... I tired of AD&D and magic solving everything long, long ago.

So if you have one, then I demand a plausible and logical reason. To just say "Because" is an insult to the adults sitting at the table.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have no problem with AD&D and the magic but I am like ArmySGT when it comes to games set in historical, modern or near future settings, I want plausible believability.
For fantasy, horror and sci-fi games I'm happy to suspend my disbelief but for modern settings, I and the people I've been gaming with have become more demanding and we want real-world, logical answers.

So I'm kinda walking in the middle here, I agree that the Littlefield collection represents a wonderful resource to anyone who controls it but I find it a stretch to believe that anyone is going to try and field the majority of Littlefield's vehicles with all their different spare parts needs as an integrated combat unit.

It's one thing for an M113 unit to throw a pair of refurbished M114 vehicles into their TOE or even a pair of SdKfz 251 halftracks but in my opinion it's too demanding on logistics to expect them to field say 10-15 M113s, a couple of M114s, a couple of SdKfz 251s, an M4 Sherman, a Matilda MkII, an M18 Hellcat and an SU-100.

[Raellus]

Hey fellas,

Things are getting a little bit testy here so, instead of trying to win each other over to our own points of view, no matter how enlightened they may be, it might be wiser and more productive to just agree to disagree.

This note is not directed at any particular user. At this point, I don't see the need to shut this thread down or PM official cease and desist requests. Let's all do our parts not to let it get to that point.

Thanks.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Hey fellas,

Things are getting a little bit testy here so, instead of trying to win each other over to our own points of view, no matter how enlightened they may be, it might be wiser and more productive to just agree to disagree.

This note is not directed at any particular user. At this point, I don't see the need to shut this thread down or PM official cease and desist requests. Let's all do our parts not to let it get to that point.

Thanks.

Yeah, I had this same argument a couple of years back and no good came of it. Actually I believe it marked the start of a decline in my participation level on this forum that hasn't really recovered. I've watched this most recent cycle and decided against joining in because I know from bitter experience that it'd be the equivalent of banging my head against the wall.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

So I'm kinda walking in the middle here, I agree that the Littlefield collection represents a wonderful resource to anyone who controls it but I find it a stretch to believe that anyone is going to try and field the majority of Littlefield's vehicles with all their different spare parts needs as an integrated combat unit.

I think these items do have their place if refurbished. Rear area security missions like the seaport, airfields, and resources like a nuclear power plant, desalinization plant. Those things. Then these WW2 relics earn their keep freeing up newer more capable platforms for the fight on the southern border. In those missions they are unlikely to be used hard enough to tear through parts or come up against modern AT weapons and soldiers with the training to use them.

A resource like the machine shop at the Littlefield collection would be better used repairing battle damaged wrecks and training every mechanic and technician that can be found in doing the same. A the while Mr. Littlefield himself travels the southwest region assembling new machineshops to do the same thing as a consultant.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

*** Thread Necromancy ***


This seemed like the best place to mention this...
Just been reading about preserved military vehicles in the former Soviet Union. A large number of WW2 era vehicles were turned into monuments in the 1940s & 50s, typically consisting of a tank or assault gun mounted on some large plinth.
What was interesting from a T2k perspective was that the method of turning these vehicles into monuments was actually rather simplistic.

The plinth would be constructed, then an earthen ramp was made behind the plinth and the vehicle (in the vast majority of cases a T-34-85) was driven up the ramp and parked on the plinth. The batteries were disconnected and all hatches were spot welded closed but aside from the removal of ammunition, nothing else of significance was done to the vehicles.
The Soviet and then the Russian government also kept a stock of 20 working T-34-85 and 20 working Su-100 vehicles for use in Moscow parades however over time the number of operational vehicles has dropped down so that by 2018, they only had approximately 3 working T-34-85's (one leading the parade and the others as spares) and a similarly low number of Su-100's.

But in the last 20 or so years, a number of T-34-85's have been making appearances in local parades across Russia and Ukraine. These particular T-34's have been recovered from the plinths they were mounted on and restored to running order. In one particular case, the recovery team did little more than change the batteries & flush the fuel lines and the old tank started up on the first try.

Now I'm not saying that Eastern European armies, militias, bandit groups, town defence units etc. etc. are going to have hundreds of recovered and restored T-34's at their disposal, it's unlikely to even be dozens of vehicles. However the way the Soviet Union made those tanks into monuments does make restoring them a hell of a lot easier than what happens in the West. Although the vast majority of such WW2 monuments featured the T-34-85, the Soviets did "preserve" other vehicles in the same manner. Again, it's not going to let some unit equip dozens of old tanks but it does make the notion of equipping a unit with one or two older Soviet amoured vehicles easier to achieve.

All in all, with that information it's easier to justify why some group or other has a pair of T-34's on strength (or one or two other Soviet armoured vehicles) or even, if the PCs find out such info, why the PC group might end up with some of those vehicles.

[Olefin]

Its amazing how much WWII equipment the Soviets kept around - its one reason their WWII films were more accurate as to equipment versus ours (think the tanks that were used in Patton as to what I am talking about) - when Enemy at the Gates was made they used a lot of old WWII equipment for the movie that they got from Russian sources that was still in perfect working order

[ChalkLine]

There is a window where a failing industrial state would see these stored vehicles as more than just scrap value.

In World War 2 Australia was in a parlous state before the US joined the war and every rusty gun available was being dragged into government workshops to see if it could be made serviceable in any way. It was so bad there was a proposal to bring in civilian trucks, convert them to armoured cars for the length of the emergency and then deactivate and return the trucks to the civilians after the war. In my mind at least all the big powers reach this state during the Twilight War.

Working ex-military vehicles, especially armoured vehicles, can be given a modern weapon and placed in an Ad Hoc Emergency Defence Force unit for the duration. M551s could be given a low pressure 105mm gun, as could a Sherman (it actually has better armour).

Are these weapons going to Europe? No. They will be used when the final decline is imminent and the administrations are trying to (alas unsuccessfully) stave off collapse. They might never operate more than 50km from their refurbishment site.

An M3 Half Track might be 50+ years old but given an new M2, slat armour and desperate troops it's still a force to be reckoned with.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that Mexico was still operating WWII equipment in their army in our real timeline - meaning that the invasion of the US would have had Stuart tanks and other fun pieces of hardware as part of their forces. And while Shermans and other older tanks would be easy meat for modern AT weapons the fact is that by 2000 you arent going to be seeing too many of them left - even among regular military units that are still intact.

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind that Mexico was still operating WWII equipment in their army in our real timeline - meaning that the invasion of the US would have had Stuart tanks and other fun pieces of hardware as part of their forces. And while Shermans and other older tanks would be easy meat for modern AT weapons the fact is that by 2000 you arent going to be seeing too many of them left - even among regular military units that are still intact.

But would you agree Olefin, a Sherman is much easy to maintain and the build spare parts for than a modern tank like a Abrams.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

*** Thread Necromancy ***


This seemed like the best place to mention this...
Just been reading about preserved military vehicles in the former Soviet Union. A large number of WW2 era vehicles were turned into monuments in the 1940s & 50s, typically consisting of a tank or assault gun mounted on some large plinth.
What was interesting from a T2k perspective was that the method of turning these vehicles into monuments was actually rather simplistic.

The plinth would be constructed, then an earthen ramp was made behind the plinth and the vehicle (in the vast majority of cases a T-34-85) was driven up the ramp and parked on the plinth. The batteries were disconnected and all hatches were spot welded closed but aside from the removal of ammunition, nothing else of significance was done to the vehicles.
The Soviet and then the Russian government also kept a stock of 20 working T-34-85 and 20 working Su-100 vehicles for use in Moscow parades however over time the number of operational vehicles has dropped down so that by 2018, they only had approximately 3 working T-34-85's (one leading the parade and the others as spares) and a similarly low number of Su-100's.

But in the last 20 or so years, a number of T-34-85's have been making appearances in local parades across Russia and Ukraine. These particular T-34's have been recovered from the plinths they were mounted on and restored to running order. In one particular case, the recovery team did little more than change the batteries & flush the fuel lines and the old tank started up on the first try.

Now I'm not saying that Eastern European armies, militias, bandit groups, town defence units etc. etc. are going to have hundreds of recovered and restored T-34's at their disposal, it's unlikely to even be dozens of vehicles. However the way the Soviet Union made those tanks into monuments does make restoring them a hell of a lot easier than what happens in the West. Although the vast majority of such WW2 monuments featured the T-34-85, the Soviets did "preserve" other vehicles in the same manner. Again, it's not going to let some unit equip dozens of old tanks but it does make the notion of equipping a unit with one or two older Soviet amoured vehicles easier to achieve.

All in all, with that information it's easier to justify why some group or other has a pair of T-34's on strength (or one or two other Soviet armoured vehicles) or even, if the PCs find out such info, why the PC group might end up with some of those vehicles.

A good source for relics is Surviving Panzers, which tries to keep track of the surviving armored vehicles from both World Wars. There look to be a lot of plinth-mounted IS-3 and IS-3M heavy tanks.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

A good source for relics is Surviving Panzers, which tries to keep track of the surviving armored vehicles from both World Wars. There look to be a lot of plinth-mounted IS-3 and IS-3M heavy tanks.

Found a similar site a couple of months ago detailing steam engines and their approximate state of (dis)repair.

[Vespers War]

I had forgotten about this, but the IS-3M in Konstantinovka (on page 31 of Surviving Panzers' IS-3 document) was started up by pro-Russian forces in Ukraine in 2014, so not only is it plausible, it's been done.

[Raellus]

An interesting piece with some information on how long it takes a resident of the Bone Yard to be returned to operational status.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-the-bone-yard

I'm sure the process could/would be sped up during wartime, but I wonder by how much, realistically, especially because manufacturers would also be trying to expand their production lines for new aircraft.