Morrow Aviation Assets

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Prime Base itself only having a small number of aircraft. Its C+C, not an airbase.

I agree with this - I actually have a "national aviation command" under the command of the national command, but I don't have it collocated.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

The various teams themselves maybe one in a dozen has a helicopter for use and never an aircraft as landing strips will be few and far between.

How many teams do you have? If you have a hundred teams then having 16 part-time helicopter pilots is difficult, if you have a thousand teams then having 166 is almost absurd! There are not that many helicopter pilots out there, expecting to draw a bunch of them into the Project (assuming they would even qualify) is a bit of a stretch, as is training them up from scratch.

Oh, and there are a ton of small airplanes (bush planes) that can land just about anywhere flatish.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Say Prime Base and the Regional Hubs have maybe five Blackhawks and one or two private jets each.

So perhaps 35 Blackhawks? And how do you figure jets? With fusion power, a propeller airplane or helicopter can stay aloft as long as you can keep someone conscious at the controls, jets require massive amounts of perishable, volatile fuel that the Project could not realistically anticipate replenishing. And why does the Project even need jets?

Originally Posted by stormlion1

The Supply Hubs have a dozen C-130's (For supply airdrops), another dozens Blackhawks (for when dropping it out of an airplane cannot happen or to transport MARS teams), and maybe two dozen Little Birds (For Air Support and scouting) and space for scavenged aircraft the project might find and reuse five years after the nukes drop.. And several teams across the US are equipped with Little Birds.

Now I'm confused - you said "Regional Hubs have maybe five Blackhawks" and now you say "The Supply Hubs have ... another dozens Blackhawks" - which is it?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

So perhaps 35 Blackhawks? And how do you figure jets? With fusion power, a propeller airplane or helicopter can stay aloft as long as you can keep someone conscious at the controls, jets require massive amounts of perishable, volatile fuel that the Project could not realistically anticipate replenishing. And why does the Project even need jets?

Most modern civilian "jets" use turbofan engines which could be converted fusion as the propulsion comes mostly from the fans and not from heated exhaust. If you are ok with a 600 mph top speed fusion turbo fans should be fine.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by kato13

Most modern civilian "jets" use turbofan engines which could be converted fusion as the propulsion comes mostly from the fans and not from heated exhaust. If you are ok with a 600 mph top speed fusion turbo fans should be fine.

If you take away the fuel, what you have left is a ducted fan, not a jet - literally. And as odd as it may sound, that jet, even when dominated by fan thrust, changes everything. I started out in aerospace engineering, and the physics of fan propulsion says that ducted fans work best in a pusher configuration and at low speed, as at high speed duct drag dominates. There is a reason you don't really see ducted fan aircraft that don't have that jet running down the center.

And even if you could, why would Morrow want the added complexity? Are they really in that much of a hurry?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

If you take away the fuel, what you have left is a ducted fan, not a jet - literally. And as odd as it may sound, that jet, even when dominated by fan thrust, changes everything. I started out in aerospace engineering, and the physics of fan propulsion says that ducted fans work best in a pusher configuration and at low speed, as at high speed duct drag dominates. There is a reason you don't really see ducted fan aircraft that don't have that jet running down the center.

And even if you could, why would Morrow want the added complexity? Are they really in that much of a hurry?

I tend to agree that jets by and large add unnecessary complexity to the Project. To make it work, we have to assume a different design reactor for jet aircraft that generate less electrical power by diverting the heat from the plasma into producing thrust rather than electrical power. This would also require some modification to route a couple of plenums to the reactor, but that shouldn't be that onerous.

A case could be made for the Project's use of jets for priority transport. But this would not require many. Something like a Citation CJ4. Might as well order a couple of those with all those V-150/300s.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I tend to agree that jets by and large add unnecessary complexity to the Project. To make it work, we have to assume a different design reactor for jet aircraft that generate less electrical power by diverting the heat from the plasma into producing thrust rather than electrical power. This would also require some modification to route a couple of plenums to the reactor, but that shouldn't be that onerous.

There's an awful lot of assumptions in that statement all for a single narrow purpose. And if this could work at all, it would certainly be onerous!

Originally Posted by mmartin798

A case could be made for the Project's use of jets for priority transport.

So make the case already! Seriously, why move mountains to travel 600mph instead of 500 mph (or whatever speed you think a fusion-powered propeller plane could handle)?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

So make the case already! Seriously, why move mountains to travel 600mph instead of 500 mph (or whatever speed you think a fusion-powered propeller plane could handle)?

VIP transport, moving biologic samples with a limited viability from a field base to a central lab facility, moving a critical patient from a field hospital in western NY to an activated Morrow Hospital base in Kansas. There are time critical function that could take advantage of the time saving.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

VIP transport

Why? I honestly cannot think of any VIP's that are that urgent to move.

Originally Posted by mmartin798

moving biologic samples with a limited viability from a field base to a central lab facility

Isn't that what the Science Teams are for? And what are the odds that the time for this trip (or any other, for that matter) isn't dominated by the need then to first get the sample to the airstrip where your high speed plane is located... if one even exists in the area? Even ignoring propulsion, I cannot think of any high-speed aircraft that can operate from a dirt field, and without that it seems like a slightly slower aircraft that can land nearby is superior to a faster aircraft that you have to traverse a hundred miles in a random direction just to reach!

Originally Posted by mmartin798

moving a critical patient from a field hospital in western NY to an activated Morrow Hospital base in Kansas.

Why is this person so important that an entire engineering team needs to devote massive pre-war resources against the possibility of their survival? And how is it that they can survive a 2-hour trip with Morrow's massive medical technology base, but not a 3-hour trip?

Originally Posted by mmartin798

There are time critical function that could take advantage of the time saving.

If that time saving didn't come with massive costs, sure... but it does. Engineering another vehicle with specialized and not-currently-extant engines, creating and maintaining the support including parts and staff, and either somehow creating a dirt-strip, high-speed aircraft or else ensuring a network of conveniently placed landing strips. That's a lot of work for little justification.

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I agree with this - I actually have a "national aviation command" under the command of the national command, but I don't have it collocated.

I figure Prime Base was the Main HQ, the Pentagon of the project. At most it has a small runway and a few helicopter pads for getting around. Even the pilots there have other jobs rather than being pilots alone.

How many teams do you have? If you have a hundred teams then having 16 part-time helicopter pilots is difficult, if you have a thousand teams then having 166 is almost absurd! There are not that many helicopter pilots out there, expecting to draw a bunch of them into the Project (assuming they would even qualify) is a bit of a stretch, as is training them up from scratch.

Never figured it out, just figured the Project at some point found and trained pilots and crews and froze them. Many of the Team Members can also be cross trained as pilots and Loadmasters and such as well. When I was in the Air Force I was cross trained as a Loadmaster on the side even though I was in the Security Police. A little cross training never hurt anyone.

Oh, and there are a ton of small airplanes (bush planes) that can land just about anywhere flatish.

True, but the idea is to keep numbers down. And the more and different kinds of aircraft there are, the longer the logistics chain. I can see them in service in area's though where C-130's cannot operate or at the furthest corners of the logistics chain. They would be the exception, not the rule.

So perhaps 35 Blackhawks? And how do you figure jets? With fusion power, a propeller airplane or helicopter can stay aloft as long as you can keep someone conscious at the controls, jets require massive amounts of perishable, volatile fuel that the Project could not realistically anticipate replenishing. And why does the Project even need jets?

Very few jets, and mostly private ones for moving higher ups around. They wouldn't see much use early on but only when the rebuilding requires someone of import to be there. By that point fuel supplies can be found or they just don't fly or they have Bruce Morrows lovely reactors installed.

Now I'm confused - you said "Regional Hubs have maybe five Blackhawks" and now you say "The Supply Hubs have ... another dozens Blackhawks" - which is it?

I separate the two. Regional Hubs are Regional Command Bases that report to Prime and collect info and dispatch orders. They can in the event of failure replace Prime Bases functions in part. They also exist as a point for extra personnel to congregate to then be dispatched to under strength Teams in the field. There Mini-Prime Bases in charge of the various regions. I kind of figure at most a compliment of maybe a 100 personnel. And even the aircraft there wouldn't have assigned pilots but in fact have a pilot for every two aircraft. Less stress on the aircraft themselves and can be replaced if there is a breakdown. They can also be borrowed by supply hubs for there operations if needed. Call it a Ready Reserve.
The Supply Hubs are outright Supply Bases and Airfields. They exist to be the stockpiled supply's and are the Teams Grocery Store. They like the various Recon Teams, MARS Teams, Medical Teams, etc report to there Regional Hubs who in turn report to Prime Base.

[stormlion1]

I'm using equipment I'm familiar with. C-130's were prime movers of gear and are old dependable aircraft with an easy to maintain airframe. Blackhawks have a relatively good safety record and can pull plenty of gear and personnel around. Huey's would be good too but I know nothing about there operations or repair. Just that there are plenty of them around. I mean if you look there everywhere. The Little Birds are on my list because of there size and multi-purpose nature. They can act as gunships, transports, small scale supply, and medevac. And most importantly there small. They can be buried in a Bolthole and pulled out when needed. larger helicopters will require a full on hanger, something that in the original 5-year timeframe can be destroyed, damaged by weather or human disaster, or just to conspicuous.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

I'm using equipment I'm familiar with. C-130's were prime movers of gear and are old dependable aircraft with an easy to maintain airframe. Blackhawks have a relatively good safety record and can pull plenty of gear and personnel around.

I agree with all of this.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Huey's would be good too but I know nothing about there operations or repair. Just that there are plenty of them around. I mean if you look there everywhere.

Huey's are like buying cheap used cars - they're cheap and easy to find, but there's a reason they're so cheap to begin with and you really shouldn't plan on them lasting long. Heck, the newest ones are 30 years old! And the reason they are around is because they are being used for relatively gentle work by people with no better options - you can make an aircraft last a long time if you do that, but it's really just spreading the lifespan by injecting idleness. I don't know about you, but I expect ALL MPV's to be in near-constant use!

Originally Posted by stormlion1

The Little Birds are on my list because of there size and multi-purpose nature. They can act as gunships, transports, small scale supply, and medevac. And most importantly there small. They can be buried in a Bolthole and pulled out when needed. larger helicopters will require a full on hanger, something that in the original 5-year timeframe can be destroyed, damaged by weather or human disaster, or just to conspicuous.

Again, I don't understand this. Little Birds are NOT utility helicopters, for good reason - they aren't good multi-taskers! They are specialists that fill very specific roles as part of a massive collection of aircraft. And I think the bolthole/hanger divide is more than a little false - botlholes are for storage, hangers are for operation, and realistically all aircraft will require some level of access to both, and the most efficient approaches do not particularly limit the use of larger aircraft.

[Askold]

The way I see it, spare parts are going to be an issue with aircraft.

Assuming best case scenario where the Morrow teams can find intact factories (either built with stuff the Morrow project had hidden in bunkers or simply salvageable factories from before the war) aircraft parts still won't be priority number 1. Even worse if you have several types of aircraft and you would need highly specialized parts.

Worst case scenario where everything outside has been destroyed and the Morrow project has to do with the meager stuff they had in their facilities... Spare parts will run out soon. How long can you fly a helicopter without proper maintenance? Or even an airplane.

You can keep a car functional for years (although some spare parts will be required) and in that time you can: Recon the area, establish contact with the survivors, start educating the survivors (if they have lost knowledge of modern technology) and even rebuilding the society. Who knows, you could even manage to keep the cars in working condition until you can make more parts and fuel for them. (Though you might have to store the fancy fusion powered stuff for a while and switch back to bio-diesel until a few decades have passed.)

With aircraft... Well, you can achieve things that would otherwise be impossible but they will be nearly one-shot devices. "Do you have a battle where air-support is absolutely vital? Do you need to pick up someone/something from a location that cannot be accessed by foot? Yeah, we can do that. ...Once."

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Askold

Worst case scenario where everything outside has been destroyed and the Morrow project has to do with the meager stuff they had in their facilities... Spare parts will run out soon. How long can you fly a helicopter without proper maintenance? Or even an airplane.

Well, there are a few things going in the Project's favor here. First, fusion reactors are canonically reliable, and replace a lot of the heavy wear parts in aircraft - there are going to be fewer moving parts, and the ones that remain are not the ones most likely to fail. Second, the Project retains not only its own stores but also some manufacturing capacity - once the stores run out they should be able to keep a modest number of aircraft flying for years afterwards by building new parts.

Besides, air vehicles are just too useful to abandon entirely.

[stormlion1]

OK, lets look at the various Regions the Project is set up over. I will use my home region for this. The Northeast. which is Region Foxtrot. It compromises New Jersey, New York, Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, Pennsylvania,
Virginia and West Virginia. That's a lot of room to cover.
Now lets say we put the regional Command base in Upstate New York, it has two commercial Lear Jets, the 55's for simplicity's sake.. Left overs from when the Project was in its start up stages. Because the Council of Tomorrow had to get around right? They have Five Blackhawks for Security Sweeps, Supply Runs, and for use by the bases MARS Team. That's 4 crew for the two Lears and 10 pilots. The Crew Chiefs and Gunners are not counted. That's 14 pilots right there.

The Supply Hubs have a dozen C-130's with two pilots apiece and a loadmaster. That's 3 crew right there apiece. And these guys are going to be busy! That's 39 crew right there, 24 of whom are pilots. Now we have a dozen Blackhawks doing the midrange supply drops, reinforcements, and going places the C-130's can't. 24 Pilots and another dozen Crew Chiefs right there. Last we have the Little Birds Two Crew apiece. Another 24 Pilots.
Total Number of pilots: 38 and various crew chiefs and Loadmasters and Door Gunners all of whom can be cross trained personnel and have other jobs. Joe the Door Gunner can be Supply Base Security Joe who sits in the coffee room all day.
And they have to cover all of the Foxtrot Region. Now the guys down in Region Bravo have got to cover Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska. They have the same amount of gear, pilots, etc. There going to have it somewhat easier but they still have to cover large swathes of ground. But if there is need aircraft and crews can be sent to help the Foxtrot Region when the Prime Base needs them too and there is some slack.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Now lets say we put the regional Command base in Upstate New York, it has two commercial Lear Jets, the 55's for simplicity's sake.. Left overs from when the Project was in its start up stages. Because the Council of Tomorrow had to get around right?

First, why would these be Morrow assets, and not part of the corporations that the CoT was drawn from? Second, to the best of my knowledge the CoT were not frozen with the Project (if at all) so why would the Project have their planes? Third, why would they all be the same, when each CoT member was likely to have different needs that they would need to justify to their corporations? Last, even if they were commandeered, how do you justify the supply chain and personnel, like fuel, jet parts, and turbine technicians?

Originally Posted by mmartin798

They have Five Blackhawks for Security Sweeps, Supply Runs, and for use by the bases MARS Team. That's 4 crew for the two Lears and 10 pilots. The Crew Chiefs and Gunners are not counted. That's 14 pilots right there.

Per region, are you going with the canonical ten regions?

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The Supply Hubs have a dozen C-130's with two pilots apiece and a loadmaster. That's 3 crew right there apiece. And these guys are going to be busy! That's 39 crew right there, 24 of whom are pilots. Now we have a dozen Blackhawks doing the midrange supply drops, reinforcements, and going places the C-130's can't. 24 Pilots and another dozen Crew Chiefs right there. Last we have the Little Birds Two Crew apiece. Another 24 Pilots.
Total Number of pilots: 38 and various crew chiefs and Loadmasters and Door Gunners all of whom can be cross trained personnel and have other jobs. Joe the Door Gunner can be Supply Base Security Joe who sits in the coffee room all day.

The only place I have seen that kind of ratio of aircraft to personnel is for experimental units where the expectation is that most days any given aircraft is under modification. Seriously, you have the expense of acquiring and supporting all those aircraft, and your best case scenario has 2/3 of them idle for lack of pilots? What happens when one or more of your pilots gets killed?

Ignoring all that, with ten regions, ignoring the Prime Base contingent, you have 520 pilots, 170 crew chiefs, an unknown number of non-flying technical and support staff, and 430 aircraft. In case you are wondering, that is about 1/13 of the USAF, an organization that has about 500,000 full-time personnel (and admittedly more duties than just operating aircraft, but that is their primary mission!). Heck, acquiring the aircraft alone is going to be well more than $10B, not counting parts, training, storage, or conversion!

How big do you see the Project as being, overall?

[nuke11]

Here's a few questions; If you are converting all of these to some sort of fusion, how do you keep the players flying in the general vicinity of the expected game? As a PD you better have the entire continent fleshed out as the players are going to get the bright idea that hay they are fusion I can fly this all day. And this is where the Prime Base module lost me, a fusion power C-130 is a really bad idea.

Then how do you convert these to fusion in the first place? Also what did the project do before the 1987 attempted fusion refit? All of the infrastructure to be abandoned that support the pre-fusion project?

The 1987 date and the 1989 expected war date are hard targets that are known. How much time does it take to go from a plan to a working fusion engine that firstly fits in a vehicle and then has to be modified and made light enough to fit into an airframe. There is some 2 years before the drop dead date and there is a lot of equipment that needs to be re-worked and de-deployed throughout the entire project.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by nuke11

If you are converting all of these to some sort of fusion, how do you keep the players flying in the general vicinity of the expected game?

Ideally, by not introducing aircraft to the characters prior to Prime Base. Seriously, they should be pretty high-level assets, not something the team can just have. And by the time the team has restored the Project they will either have nationwide issues to deal with (if they are in charge) or else will be subservient to some other group (like Phoenix) that controls the aircraft.

Originally Posted by nuke11

And this is where the Prime Base module lost me, a fusion power C-130 is a really bad idea.

I think it's a really good idea. As I said before, aircraft are too useful for the Project to not have any.

Originally Posted by nuke11

Then how do you convert these to fusion in the first place? Also what did the project do before the 1987 attempted fusion refit? All of the infrastructure to be abandoned that support the pre-fusion project?

Answer that for the rest of the Morrow vehicle fleet! Seriously, if they can do it for all the V-150's or Strykers or whatever vehicles are being used then they can do it for some helicopters and a few planes as well.

Originally Posted by nuke11

The 1987 date and the 1989 expected war date are hard targets that are known. How much time does it take to go from a plan to a working fusion engine that firstly fits in a vehicle and then has to be modified and made light enough to fit into an airframe. There is some 2 years before the drop dead date and there is a lot of equipment that needs to be re-worked and de-deployed throughout the entire project.

Yeah, well, the back story was never really well thought through...

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

I figure Prime Base was the Main HQ, the Pentagon of the project. At most it has a small runway and a few helicopter pads for getting around.

I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Even the pilots there have other jobs rather than being pilots alone.

I disagree about 97%. I work with pilots, some very very good ones. Pilots who are not pilots alone are the ones who tend to crash, especially if called upon to do anything tricky. Piloting requires constant practice, especially for helicopters.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Never figured it out, just figured the Project at some point found and trained pilots and crews and froze them. Many of the Team Members can also be cross trained as pilots and Loadmasters and such as well. When I was in the Air Force I was cross trained as a Loadmaster on the side even though I was in the Security Police. A little cross training never hurt anyone.

Being a loadmaster is not the same as being a pilot. Cross-training is indeed good, but pilots don't grow on trees and the time required to learn and maintain that skill means that any other work will be relatively minor.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

True, but the idea is to keep numbers down. And the more and different kinds of aircraft there are, the longer the logistics chain. I can see them in service in area's though where C-130's cannot operate or at the furthest corners of the logistics chain. They would be the exception, not the rule.

I never said you had to have multiple varieties of bush plane, I am just saying that it is easier and cheaper to have bush planes and bush pilots than even the cheapest and easiest helicopters and their pilots. Seriously, in the exact situations you describe, there are bush planes handling the vast bulk of the work.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Very few jets, and mostly private ones for moving higher ups around. They wouldn't see much use early on but only when the rebuilding requires someone of import to be there. By that point fuel supplies can be found or they just don't fly or they have Bruce Morrows lovely reactors installed.

I just commented on the issue of fusion-powered turbofans (i.e., they can't exist), and a jet you can only use occasionally seems a hard trade against a prop-plane you can use constantly.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

I separate the two. Regional Hubs are Regional Command Bases that report to Prime and collect info and dispatch orders. They can in the event of failure replace Prime Bases functions in part.

Alright, I have something similar.

Originally Posted by stormlion1

And even the aircraft there wouldn't have assigned pilots but in fact have a pilot for every two aircraft. Less stress on the aircraft themselves and can be replaced if there is a breakdown.

Doesn't seem particularly efficient. Most military and civilian operations reverse that ratio, having more pilots than aircraft. Throw in fusion reactors and you all but need it!

So do a little math, and list your complete Morrow Air Force. Until you have an actual inventory it is impossible to say whether or not any given aircraft makes sense.