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#31
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I think you see a lot of field-expedient aka home made ones using whatever troops could find. The weapon system and way the round is ejected would determine if it hinder performance. For example weapons mounted on vehicles or to fixed postions might have a sandbag attached by some wire for a catcher
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I will not hide. I will not be deterred nor will I be intimidated from my performing my duty, I am a Canadian Soldier. |
#32
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That makes sense. I've seen ads for brass catchers on AR-15-type weapons, but what is nice for a hobbyist might not work in the field.
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#33
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I also think PC might want to pick all the brass after a firefight that they win anybody know what a spent casing weights?
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I will not hide. I will not be deterred nor will I be intimidated from my performing my duty, I am a Canadian Soldier. |
#34
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I know brass is a common material for a lot of cartridges, but the Soviets among others were still using some lacquered steel casings, weren't they? I think there was a thread around here somewhere that had some discussion on Soviet steel-cased ammo. Another thing to take into consideration is that the ejection action on some weapons, depending on the make and model can be pretty violent and either damage or even rip the case in half.
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"The use of force is always an answer to problems. Whether or not it's a satisfactory answer depends on a number of things, not least the personality of the person making the determination. Force isn't an attractive answer, though. I would not be true to myself or to the people I served with in 1970 if I did not make that realization clear." — David Drake |
#35
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As a rough rule of thumb: -
1. any Heckler & Koch firearm of the G3 & MP5 family and related designs (e.g. CETME Model C) will all damage the brass due to their roller-delayed blowback operation. Most other designs will only do minor/inconsequential/no damage unless it's a catastrophic failure of the ammo or the random chance that the ejected brass hits the sides of the ejection port (the H&K weapons increase this random chance to a positive certainty!). 2. Soviets used lacquered steel cases to save on brass (brass was a strategic metal they never seemed to have enough of). P.S. the steel cases were lacquered to stop them from rusting so we're not talking about high quality steel, even with that they can still be reloaded a few times however. Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 06-18-2015 at 08:05 PM. Reason: adding info |
#36
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#37
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#38
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#39
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Salt
Also available for salt is evaporated sea water. This technique was used for centuries in warm coastal areas:
Usually, in a full production cycle, you have several pools at various stages of evaporation, and enough facilities to boil off one pool at a time. In places where it rains frequently, you can cover the ponds with a tent (depending on size). This method was popular from Roman times until the early 20th century around the Mediterranean Sea - France, Spain, Sicily, North Africa, Greece, Israel, Egypt. This technique was used in the Carribbean Islands, when the Europeans colonized them. And San Francisco Bay and around the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Avery Island, Louisiana, (home of McIlleney's famous Tobasco Sauce) has a major salt mine no longer in use (but available). Grand Saline, Texas, and Sifto Mine in Goderich, Ontario have active salt mines. Fairport, OH has an active mine 2000 ft deep. Inagua (Bahamas) has an active solar/evaporation system - has since the 1950s. Hmmm. Need to see what drives that... There are probably other minor sources of Salt that over the course of the 20th Century became less economically viable as a salt production location (certainly, that is what happened in central NY), but could serve again at a more localized level of production and distribution. If you live in Rochester, NY (in June 2000), it will be more possible to get salt from Syracuse, NY (up I-90 or along the Erie Canal - it's still there and still wet, mostly) than from Avery Island, LA, Grand Saline, Texas, or Detroit, MI. Uncle Ted |
#40
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There was a middle aged guy prowling the abandoned truckstop outside town. He wasn't looking through the wrecks, just the lot. When asked, he held up what looked like and ingot,"Just looking for wheel weights, gotta feed my weapons." He carried an old Colt auto in a battered thumb break holster, it's mag had a lead alloy that was like a hardball load. He had molds for his CAR-15 and swaged old .22LR cases for jackets. Captain later made a deal for him to load some of our brass. He also turned out to be quite a scavenger. Just a quick one, I'm looking at my "Homefront" notes for a dependent based campaign. The guy described was married to an staff officer and a part of the "officer's wives club" as a source of heavy work.
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#41
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I'd even seen facilities for this at Dampier and Port Hedland during one joint services exercise during the 1990s but as mentioned, I had forgot all about it. Here in Western Australia, there are evaporative salt facilities at the towns of Port Hedland, Dampier, Roeburne, Onslow, Carnarvon and Shark Bay. About 90% of total salt production in Australia is for export sales so it's considered a significant industry here. Those locations aren't much help for Australia after the Twilight War as they are quite remote but certainly the workers at these facilities could set up new production sites in the remaining population centres on the coast. Closer to the European & North American theatres of the Twilight War, Mexico is a large exporter of salt and when you consider that salt is a component required for the manufacture of caustic soda and of chlorine, there may be an adventure or three for characters sneaking into Mexico to either seize supplies of salt, seize the production facilities or to destroy them. |
#42
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli |
#43
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Current economic viability is something that impacts the data we get about things like this, mineral and oil production. If it wasn't viable in 1980's then you wont find much information on it now...
Thats why I give my group some real freedom with whats possible when it comes to resources. Ten guys and a truck can mine salt, in relative quantities, just fine in NY and a ton of other places. Texas has a ton of salt domes...
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"Oh yes, I WOOT!" TheDarkProphet |
#44
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Might they be defended by small number of brave men behind bronze badges? Perhaps driving the last of the V-8 engined Police Interceptors? Did I already see this movie? Uncle Ted You listen bronze. I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller! I'm the Nightrider, baby, and we ain't never comin' back! |
#45
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#46
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Ah you guys!
Both these replies made me laugh out loud As for salt, you know what The Humungus would say... "There has been too much violence. Too much pain. But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk away. Give me your pump, the oil, the salt and the whole compound, and I'll spare your lives. Just walk away and we'll give you a safe passageway in the wastelands. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror." Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 06-30-2015 at 07:44 PM. Reason: adding quote |
#47
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I have seen some of the aviation guys using them. My understating is that the only issues they may cause is when they get full they will jam the weapon, most that I have seen would hold at most 100 spent cases, less if they get jumbled up badly. I would guess they are good for two, maybe three magazines out of most rifles.
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#48
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I own an HK 93. I can tell you... you can reload that brass normally.
You "can" reload steel cased ammo. Its just harder on the equipment. The only issue I see with reloading in a T2K enviornment is making the ammo to function reliably. Casings... no problems. Primers and actual FMJ type projectiles are much harder. Powder IDK it would seem that you would need good components. I'd love to hear ideas on this.... :-)
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Max M. "aka Moose" |
#49
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Messing in 2000
Photos from messing of 2d MARDIV in Poland. A German made mess kit issued to Sgt Jamie Carol. A wild pig, 'sniped' by a Marine from 2/6.
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#50
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I think the biggest problem with reloading military smallarms ammo at the cottage industry level, is something that we have mentioned on the forum before but doesn't seem to be been brought up again in this thread - removal/replacement of the primer from used cases.
Most military rifle ammo (including from Eastern Europe) has been using Berdan primers for pretty much all of the 20th century. Berdan primer cases have two small flash holes and a centreline anvil where the flash hole would be on Boxer primer ammo (Boxer priming is found on nearly all common civilian centrefire ammo made in the USA as well as places like Australia). Basically, Berdan primers are a simple cup whereas Boxer primers are a two piece design that incorporates an anvil. On both types, the priming compound is crushed between the firing pin and the anvil to cause ignition of the gunpowder. Special tools are available to remove Berdan primers but they are not likely to be widespread in the warzones. Boxer primed ammo is relatively easy to deprime and requires little more than a hole punch of a width suitable for the flash hole. Berdan priming was, as far as I can tell, chosen for most military forces around the world because Boxer primers were far more complex to manufacture in the 1800s. This would have been of obvious importance in the past but with mass production factories of the 1900s, it's less so now. Examples of Berdan (on the left) and Boxer (on the right) primer ammunition As mentioned, special tools are available to remove Berdan primers and some reloaders have even found methods to convert Berdan primed ammo to a Boxer primer. However there is a simple way to remove Berdan primers that requires tools no more complex than those used for removing Boxer primers and the principles of hydraulics. Basically, fill the case with water and use a suitable width rod to put pressure on the water thus causing the water to force the primer out. Here's a short (8 mins) YouTube video showing a conversion of Berdan to Boxer ammo plus using the hydraulic technique to remove the Berdan primers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkKJfvMyuDg and here's another vid (approx 10 mins) showing another person's method of removing the Berdan primers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNDgjcgofY And this thread shows a dry method (i.e. no use of water) of removing the Berdan primer along with the main point of converting Berdan ammo to Boxer. http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...l#.VZicpBuqpBc I think all these methods would be "discovered" in the T2k world depending on a community's ability to make the required primers and while not something that many Players might care about, it does add an extra layer to the game that can be useful for fleshing out the world or even as seeds for adventure scenarios. For a more informed report, the wiki article on centrefire ammo is a good start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition |
#51
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Another thing about ammo. Even though in the twilight war the war had raged for 3-4 years with BILLIONS of rounds fired.... how many BILLIONS of rounds were manufactured before it all stopped?
I would say that in places with constant conflict of minor military forces with relatively low number of fighter/shooters there would be enough to go around. Now whether that ammo is easy to distribute is another story. I think Stainless hit ti in the head with the above post though. I think a small but well run manufacturing plant (by game standards) would be able to produce reliable ammo for military use.
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Max M. "aka Moose" Last edited by Twilight2000v3MM; 07-05-2015 at 01:28 PM. Reason: thoughts |
#52
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Some insight as to what places like wojo are capable of https://youtu.be/0TMrunbZLJw
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#53
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Speaking of munitions/armaments, if the PCs gifted with Chemistry, Armorer, Combat Engineer, Mechanic, Metallurgy, and similar industrial skills would work for Wojo in exchange for ammo or discounted munition prices, how much could they possibly improve on the 10% failure rate? Perhaps building and operating a tempering oven to reduce cartridge case failures/extend case life. Or quality control on the propellant and primer lines to make misfires less likely? Or revamping the dies to ensue cases are not damaged by mis-shaping them? What about the effect a PC's Instruction skill might have on raising the quality co-efficient of the Wojo production line?
Also, on a distantly related note, would mine-detectors give scavengers an advantage in locating spent brass? If so, how much?
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"Let's roll." Todd Beamer, aboard United Flight 93 over western Pennsylvania, September 11, 2001. Last edited by WallShadow; 02-02-2018 at 02:02 PM. |
#54
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Re-reading this thread I realize that .45cultist's post (#36 in the thread) actually had mentioned the difficulties of removing Berdan primers and also a very quick (and cottage-industry) solution.
Obviously I wasn't paying attention when I made my post with the images of Berdan and Boxer primer cartridge cases Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads |
#55
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#56
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Soooo.....Thread necromancy can be a _good_ thing?? (says one of the most egregious sinners in that vein)
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"Let's roll." Todd Beamer, aboard United Flight 93 over western Pennsylvania, September 11, 2001. |
#57
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Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage it.
And having said that, going back to one of your posts Wallshadow (#53 in this thread), I think mine detectors and even metal detectors of any type would be "must have" pieces of kit for scavengers for as long as people could get batteries to power them. Many civilian metal detectors can easily locate coins, nails and the like so I would think they would have no trouble locating spent brass. In regards to game stats for 2nd/2.2 I would think that using one would make the Task Check one level of Difficulty easier. |
#58
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#59
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Saltier
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Making Salt From an Ancient Ocean Trapped Below the Appalachians Apparently a big deal 1780s-1860, rebuilt post ACW and commercially viable until the 1950s. And able to be restarted in modern times, at least on a small scale. Complete with a river to aid in distribution. Uncle Ted |
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