NATO Small Arms production in late stages of Twilight War

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think the biggest problem with reloading military smallarms ammo at the cottage industry level, is something that we have mentioned on the forum before but doesn't seem to be been brought up again in this thread - removal/replacement of the primer from used cases.

Most military rifle ammo (including from Eastern Europe) has been using Berdan primers for pretty much all of the 20th century. Berdan primer cases have two small flash holes and a centreline anvil where the flash hole would be on Boxer primer ammo (Boxer priming is found on nearly all common civilian centrefire ammo made in the USA as well as places like Australia). Basically, Berdan primers are a simple cup whereas Boxer primers are a two piece design that incorporates an anvil. On both types, the priming compound is crushed between the firing pin and the anvil to cause ignition of the gunpowder.

Special tools are available to remove Berdan primers but they are not likely to be widespread in the warzones. Boxer primed ammo is relatively easy to deprime and requires little more than a hole punch of a width suitable for the flash hole.
Berdan priming was, as far as I can tell, chosen for most military forces around the world because Boxer primers were far more complex to manufacture in the 1800s. This would have been of obvious importance in the past but with mass production factories of the 1900s, it's less so now.
Examples of Berdan (on the left) and Boxer (on the right) primer ammunition


As mentioned, special tools are available to remove Berdan primers and some reloaders have even found methods to convert Berdan primed ammo to a Boxer primer. However there is a simple way to remove Berdan primers that requires tools no more complex than those used for removing Boxer primers and the principles of hydraulics. Basically, fill the case with water and use a suitable width rod to put pressure on the water thus causing the water to force the primer out.
Here's a short (8 mins) YouTube video showing a conversion of Berdan to Boxer ammo plus using the hydraulic technique to remove the Berdan primers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkKJfvMyuDg
and here's another vid (approx 10 mins) showing another person's method of removing the Berdan primers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNDgjcgofY
And this thread shows a dry method (i.e. no use of water) of removing the Berdan primer along with the main point of converting Berdan ammo to Boxer.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...l#.VZicpBuqpBc

I think all these methods would be "discovered" in the T2k world depending on a community's ability to make the required primers and while not something that many Players might care about, it does add an extra layer to the game that can be useful for fleshing out the world or even as seeds for adventure scenarios.
For a more informed report, the wiki article on centrefire ammo is a good start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Another thing about ammo. Even though in the twilight war the war had raged for 3-4 years with BILLIONS of rounds fired.... how many BILLIONS of rounds were manufactured before it all stopped?

I would say that in places with constant conflict of minor military forces with relatively low number of fighter/shooters there would be enough to go around.

Now whether that ammo is easy to distribute is another story.

I think Stainless hit ti in the head with the above post though. I think a small but well run manufacturing plant (by game standards) would be able to produce reliable ammo for military use.

[Draq]

Some insight as to what places like wojo are capable of https://youtu.be/0TMrunbZLJw

[WallShadow]

Speaking of munitions/armaments, if the PCs gifted with Chemistry, Armorer, Combat Engineer, Mechanic, Metallurgy, and similar industrial skills would work for Wojo in exchange for ammo or discounted munition prices, how much could they possibly improve on the 10% failure rate? Perhaps building and operating a tempering oven to reduce cartridge case failures/extend case life. Or quality control on the propellant and primer lines to make misfires less likely? Or revamping the dies to ensue cases are not damaged by mis-shaping them? What about the effect a PC's Instruction skill might have on raising the quality co-efficient of the Wojo production line?
Also, on a distantly related note, would mine-detectors give scavengers an advantage in locating spent brass? If so, how much?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Re-reading this thread I realize that .45cultist's post (#36 in the thread) actually had mentioned the difficulties of removing Berdan primers and also a very quick (and cottage-industry) solution.
Obviously I wasn't paying attention when I made my post with the images of Berdan and Boxer primer cartridge cases
Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Re-reading this thread I realize that .45cultist's post (#36 in the thread) actually had mentioned the difficulties of removing Berdan primers and also a very quick (and cottage-industry) solution.
Obviously I wasn't paying attention when I made my post with the images of Berdan and Boxer primer cartridge cases
Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads

Visual aids always help.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads

Soooo.....Thread necromancy can be a _good_ thing?? (says one of the most egregious sinners in that vein)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage it.

And having said that, going back to one of your posts Wallshadow (#53 in this thread), I think mine detectors and even metal detectors of any type would be "must have" pieces of kit for scavengers for as long as people could get batteries to power them.
Many civilian metal detectors can easily locate coins, nails and the like so I would think they would have no trouble locating spent brass. In regards to game stats for 2nd/2.2 I would think that using one would make the Task Check one level of Difficulty easier.

[Draq]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage itr.

I have all my favorite thread subscribed and if I find something that I feel belongs, it goes. Seems silly to keep making new threads, and having to keep back referencing old ones. Besides I'm really proud of the 'best that never was' thread' I started

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage it.

And having said that, going back to one of your posts Wallshadow (#53 in this thread), I think mine detectors and even metal detectors of any type would be "must have" pieces of kit for scavengers for as long as people could get batteries to power them.
Many civilian metal detectors can easily locate coins, nails and the like so I would think they would have no trouble locating spent brass. In regards to game stats for 2nd/2.2 I would think that using one would make the Task Check one level of Difficulty easier.

The problem is they also detect shrapnel...