"Sovereign Citizens" and the Freemen movement

[rcaf_777]

Perhaps Lt OX can answer this? which US Agencies can swear in Deputies?

I seem to recall John Wayne doing a lot of that in his movies, I dont know if the US Marhalls Service still have that power.

[.45cultist]

They do. When my BIL was on the KCMO meth task force, they would go to the Marshals and be sworn in when the dealers crossed state lines into Kansas.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

They do. When my BIL was on the KCMO meth task force, they would go to the Marshals and be sworn in when the dealers crossed state lines into Kansas.

Yep and yes again smile. have been a "Deputy US Marshall" for short periods on a number of Occasions either to assist in a Federal arrest or search or to assist in Transport.

[LT. Ox]

"And do you really think that the members of this board seek legal advice for me? If you do I'm very flattered but really I'm actually just stating facts which are freely available online, and I stated these facts to support Schone23666's statement about the current Sovereign Citizen movement and how it could relate to a T2K scenario. However if you feel that some members of this site might be a bit feeble minded and be influenced by my rantings I'll tell them not go out and harass the nearest police officer. "

"PLEASE DONT DO IT !!!!"

Sir I did not, nor do I now think your information was solicited by Members of this board, what I think is dictated by the language of your posts and reoffered by this last is you are posting what you call , and I think strongly believe, are FACTS while in my belief they are disputed as such.
Because something is available on the either is not a proof of its truth or accuracy, as I am sure you are aware.
I have posted in response because of my training, education and much experience with the law and dealing with people that have used the mentioned organizations touted beliefs.
On several occasions contact with those that strongly held to such principles led to confrontation and ultimately to arrest and incarceration. That is fact, not supposition.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

Sir I did not, nor do I now think your information was solicited by Members of this board, what I think is dictated by the language of your posts and reoffered by this last is you are posting what you call , and I think strongly believe, are FACTS while in my belief they are disputed as such.
Because something is available on the either is not a proof of its truth or accuracy, as I am sure you are aware.
I have posted in response because of my training, education and much experience with the law and dealing with people that have used the mentioned organizations touted beliefs.
On several occasions contact with those that strongly held to such principles led to confrontation and ultimately to arrest and incarceration. That is fact, not supposition.

If you feel that such facts are disputed then please feel free to dispute them.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Perhaps Lt OX can answer this? which US Agencies can swear in Deputies?

I seem to recall John Wayne doing a lot of that in his movies, I dont know if the US Marhalls Service still have that power.

When I went down to Katrina, we were told that we were all being sworn in as Deputy U.S. Marshals and/or would be sworn in a Deputy Sheriffs in whatever Parish we would be in. The powers that be on my job suddenly became very worried about this when we got down there and NOPD was basically begging us for help (offered to put two of their guys with two of our guys in each car, we called this a combat car up in NY). Sadly the nervous nellies (lawsuits or bad publicity) on my job won out, but we rescued a lot of dogs and cats........(not much actual police work)

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by Louied

When I went down to Katrina, we were told that we were all being sworn in as Deputy U.S. Marshals and/or would be sworn in a Deputy Sheriffs in whatever Parish we would be in. The powers that be on my job suddenly became very worried about this when we got down there and NOPD was basically begging us for help (offered to put two of their guys with two of our guys in each car, we called this a combat car up in NY). Sadly the nervous nellies (lawsuits or bad publicity) on my job won out, but we rescued a lot of dogs and cats........(not much actual police work)

In Colorado any certified Officer acting under the cover of his uniform (in line of duty) may enlist the aid of any citizen to perform tasks under direction of himself or another Certified Officer.
This was rarely done in my day and much less so now, possible because of our suit crazy lawyer infested erp..... Way too personal.
Well I will admit that I had some problems with doing that even when it was only to direct traffic at traffic accidents, after all one doe’s not have or take time to do background and phyic evals.
I only deputized two persons to assist me in a true we got work ta do situation here in the good old west and that was at a Bar with a whole lot of drunken cowboys when the PBA rodeo was in town, seems that the good old boys did not take kindly to the MAN getting in way of personnel fights. That was in 1981 and we had twelve Road Deputies for the County 24/7. Having come from Oakland PD to that was a real “ How in the Hell did I get into this situation” moment in time.
,

[Ancestor]

Originally Posted by Louied

When I went down to Katrina, we were told that we were all being sworn in as Deputy U.S. Marshals and/or would be sworn in a Deputy Sheriffs in whatever Parish we would be in. The powers that be on my job suddenly became very worried about this when we got down there and NOPD was basically begging us for help (offered to put two of their guys with two of our guys in each car, we called this a combat car up in NY). Sadly the nervous nellies (lawsuits or bad publicity) on my job won out, but we rescued a lot of dogs and cats........(not much actual police work)

Louied did you go down there as law enforcement or National Guard? I was there with 35th ID (KSARNG) and worked a bunch of legal issues as the only JAG in the Division HQ for the first three weeks. Ran into some similar issues.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Perhaps Lt OX can answer this? which US Agencies can swear in Deputies?

I seem to recall John Wayne doing a lot of that in his movies, I dont know if the US Marhalls Service still have that power.

I believe that if push came to shove all police can "Deputies" someone, as in that case all that they are doing is acting under the authority of the one who did so. You do not see it much as if I as a federal officer deputies you and you do something wrong it is on me. With the standards that there are today it is so easy for someone with out training to mess up. At the academy they talked about this just a bit, mostly with things such as if the officer is in a fight for their life and tell someone on the street to do some thing that person is covered.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I had vaguely heard of the Sovereign Citizen movement but didn't ever look in to it or anything. Then while watching King of the Hill, Dale goes off on a crazy rant in court. The judge tells him he can't smoke in the courtroom and Dale says something to the effect that the gold-fringed US flag was a Naval flag and that he didn't have to obey Navy rules (since he'd been dishonorably discharged, if I recall). At the time I thought Mike Judge, the series' creator, had really decided to write some super-wacky nonsense stuff for Dale to spout.

Years later I found out that there are people who actually believe that courtrooms have a gold-fringed flag in them in an attempt to "put you" in a "naval" court "at sea" where the US Constitution doesn't apply, but some arcane laws influenced by Navy rules. I was flabbergasted.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Years later I found out that there are people who actually believe that courtrooms have a gold-fringed flag in them in an attempt to "put you" in a "naval" court "at sea" where the US Constitution doesn't apply, but some arcane laws influenced by Navy rules. I was flabbergasted.

There an old Law & Order episode called Nunfication. In the episode the criminals attempt to rob a armored car which leads to the prosecution of a suburban right-wing militia group that claims to be at war with the U.S. government.

When the Criminals are put before the Judge at their hearing they claim that they are POW's they can't judge by the court. They ask the judge to refer the case to a military court, which the judge responses she can't do. Then they pull put the flag argument. The judge tell she doesn’t care how many bells or fringes are on that flag, it’s not happening

[Anna Elizabeth]

I used to run into guys like that - the "Gold Fringe" guys, when I worked retail. I guess my politeness was taken for agreement, because they would invariably escalate the conversation towards racism, homophobia, and the like.

Now I just wear my Pride jewelry all the time, and get more nasty looks, but far fewer dumbass conspiracy conversations.

[Panther Al]

My take on this whole mess is just that it does more harm than good.

Same with the 'Open Carry' clowns that you see now and then walking around with AR's.

Whist I can be called conservative on a lot (even most) of issues, I fall in the more liberal camp on enough that the local GOP back in Defiance when I lived there had hated me (To be fair to the GOP on the whole, part of the problem the locals had was that I was Jewish, and not a 'Good Christian' - and yes, they said that was the problem where as the local GOP in the DC area had no major issues at all). So I am neither hard core righty, or hard core lefty: something the reasonable conservative middle as I call it.

The whole Sovereign Citizen nonsense - and I don't say that to be offensive, it is just how I see it myself, is that it paints everyone that shares even a smidge of agreement with any particular with the same brush. And because of that, they are oft times lumped into the same group of people that have legitimate and rational issues with government as it is constituted today - making it easy for other groups, be it the press, political parties, or activists of what ever stripe, to ridicule them in toto, and make what efforts that they are trying to make be pointless.

The same goes for the Open Carry nabobs. By walking around with AR's or the like they can honestly be painted as a major problem just waiting to happen. The frighten people that do not know the basic issues they are supposedly supporting into becoming hard core anti-gunners. They cause Police Officers, who have better things to be doing, to respond to spurious issues, at times at great risk of harm to either themselves, or the ones that are causing the trouble in the first place. I have nothing against concealed, or even open carry: I've done both. But there is a difference with walking around in everyones faces with an rifle and a discretely carried pistol at ones hip. With the latter, it isn't as obvious, and those that see it can easily choose to not see it if it offends them. Granted, I only carried openly a few times when I felt the need of deterrence was worth it: taking the days deposit to be dropped off in the after-hours drop box at the bank, or when I had to do a stop in a particularly bad neighbourhood where having an obvious pistol on my hip drove the risk-reward math into my favour, and not the local bangers - believe it or not, most of them are smart enough to figure out that going after a guy with a obvious gun isn't smart.


Both these groups give the more conservative side so many PR fits there are days I swear the left is actually behind it... but then I remember to take off my tinfoil hat.