Ammo stockpiles

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

So, you're saying it is ALL stored onsite at Salt Lake City?

Seems a bit ... odd ...

Nothing stored nearer, oh, I dunno, major military bases and/or ports or suchlike (and I don't mean stuff presumably 'in transit' from SLC)?

Of course, there's the Maritime Prepositioning Ships in the Indian Ocean (and wherever) and, presumably, the support ships for MEFs and MEBs, those that are embarked at the time of the ZA, presumably ... and aren't sunk/'lost at sea'

I know when I was in the Citizen Military Forces in 1974-75, there was bugger all (if any) ammo stored at Sydney University Regiment base ... if we did a Range Day or suchlike it was provided onsite and, IIRC, came from somewhere out to the west of Sydney ... Holsworthy? Maybe Singleton?

I also know that at Queen Victoria Barracks (Regular Army) in Sydney the only ammo on the premises was for the Browning Hi-Power kept locked in the Paymaster's safe, and brought out when pay was being issued (in cash in those days). Allegedly the ammo had been in the magazine, which was only inserted in the pistol when 'in use', and had been for ... longer than anyone could remember (which was the last time the weapon had been stripped an cleaned rather than merely wiped over externally).

Wouldn't like anyone's chances of getting off more than one shot (because the spring feed in the mag had been under compression for so long) ... and even that wouldn't be a certainty.

No fending off Zombie Hordes with that gun.

(And, no, back in the day, 'armed' sentries at military bases had no ammo in their rifles, either ... MPs, maybe. OOW, possibly)

Phil

Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

[aspqrz]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are???

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else?) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

[aspqrz]

Lake City, outside of Independence, MO.

Even more out of the way than SLC!

Phil

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are???

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else?) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

As I understand it, each TO&E says "X" amount of Ammunition to train and "Y" amount of Ammunition for war is to be stored. You don't just dump excess ammo from one into the other. And a few careers have ended over inappropriate disposal before Change of Command, when the unit property books are inspected. For a "Z" scenario or early in the Twilight War this could change though. So if a unit is allotted 10 cases of 5.56N to deploy in war, it has 1 to 10 cases allotted for re-qualification and training depending on the circumstances.

[Apache6]

Stateside in the U.S., major bases have a certain ammount of contingency ammunition which is really maintained to provide the initial combat load for forces mounting out for expeditionary operations. I will not state specific amounts but it's more then a couple combat loads (though it veries by type) for units assigned there with expeditionary missions.

There is also normally a fairly large amount of ammunition stored for training. A major combat unit goes through a lot of ammunitiion over a course of a year. The ammunition is normally ordered and delivered based on fiscal year (begining in October rather then Jan) training cycles.

At an absolote minimum, even a non deployable Marine unit gets ~ 400 rounds of 5.56mm for each Marine to conduct annual rifle range requalification and ~ 200 rounds of 9mm for each SNCO/Officer and junior Marine assigned a pistol to conduct annual pistol qualification.

Deployable combat arms units are allocated much more ammo.

There are several VERY large ammunition stockpiles on the east and west coast which are built near major ports to allow for then to be sent overseas, each also has rail and road access, built to allow them to receive munitions from the factories. Would also serve to allow it to be sent out.

Both the Army and the Navy (for the USMC) have contracted ammunition ships which contain large ammunition stockpiles which are designed to support major combat operations by brigade sized units. The Maritime Positioning Ships, contracted by USN in support of USMC land operations stock 15 days worth of ammunition for a Marine Expeditionary Brigade.

[Raellus]

My impression is that there's not as much ammo out there as we'd like to believe.

I wish I'd posted it when I first encountered it, but a few years ago, I read an article about how the U.S. military was having a hard time keeping 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammo in stock- it was right after "The Surge", I believe. The military was having to purchase ammo off-the-shelf on the civilian market to make up for shortfalls. Recent articles have claimed that the U.S. is currently running very low on air-dropped munitions. Supply simply hasn't kept up with demand.

Also, after the Sandy Hook elementary school mass shooting, it was really difficult for civilians to find .223 or 5.56mm ammo as there was a panic run on many calibers of small arms ammo ("Oh no! Obama's coming for our guns now!"). I pretty much gave up on hobby shooting at that time. In fact, in one of the saddest phenomena in my country, this sort of thing happens after nearly every mass shooting, and firearms sales skyrocket.

So, from this anecdotal evidence, I think ammo would quickly become scarce in a major national crisis (World War, Zombacalype, etc.). Yeah, there'd be pockets of supply, but they'd be few and far between. I always laugh when folks go full auto on TWD, especially in later seasons. Wishful thinking, at best.

[Apache6]

I'm not saying there will not be shortages caused by uneven distribution.

I am saying that there are enough small arms rounds in the US military inventory to deal with a "zombie outbreak" or lots of other contingencies. There are significant stockpiles of small arms rounds, and other munitions.

The following link has a lot of information. Short synopsis, the pre 9/11 annual requirement for 5.56 rounds was 682 million rounds. That was increased to 1.35 billion rounds. The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is capable at full production rate of making 1.2 billion rounds a year.

http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/...arms_ammo.html

The lack of ammunition during the surge was for a specific type of "New" round for the 5.56.

The above does not even begin to account for the rounds held by private individuals, police departments, and retailers/wholesalers (Walmart, Cabelas, Bass Pro-Shop...) or for ammunition either made by civilian companies or imported.Shortages of civilian ammo has largely been caused by politically fueled fears. Again, that is VERY likely to occur during a real panic, so I'm not saying that their will not be shortages. .22 Long Rifle ammunition has become both expensive and hard to get, but it's being produced at higher then normal levels. US commercial plants are capable of manufacturing up to 4.2 billion rounds of .22 LR each year, and they are now.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Apache6

I'm not saying there will not be shortages caused by uneven distribution.

I am saying that there are enough small arms rounds in the US military inventory to deal with a "zombie outbreak" or lots of other contingencies. There are significant stockpiles of small arms rounds, and other munitions.

The following link has a lot of information. Short synopsis, the pre 9/11 annual requirement for 5.56 rounds was 682 million rounds. That was increased to 1.35 billion rounds. The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is capable at full production rate of making 1.2 billion rounds a year.

http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/...arms_ammo.html

The lack of ammunition during the surge was for a specific type of "New" round for the 5.56.

The above does not even begin to account for the rounds held by private individuals, police departments, and retailers/wholesalers (Walmart, Cabelas, Bass Pro-Shop...) or for ammunition either made by civilian companies or imported.Shortages of civilian ammo has largely been caused by politically fueled fears. Again, that is VERY likely to occur during a real panic, so I'm not saying that their will not be shortages. .22 Long Rifle ammunition has become both expensive and hard to get, but it's being produced at higher then normal levels. US commercial plants are capable of manufacturing up to 4.2 billion rounds of .22 LR each year, and they are now.

They operate at about 1/3 or so capacity. It would take the T2K timeline to bring it to full strength- just in time for the bombs.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

No problem, just thought would let you know they are different.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

So, 'war stocks' are???

War stocks are the ammo on hand so a unit can go to war with out having to wait for ammo. It is different than training ammo in some things. Like the Tanks will not be using target practice ammo, but full up Sabot, and or HEAT rounds. The MG ammo will be the AP type not the ball (most likely). How much is on hand depends on the unit, I would expect the 82nd to have more per soldier than 91st troop command. My first unit was an enhanced brigade with standing orders to be ready to fight in Korea, the plan at the time was that if war broke out we would be the first heavy unit there and expect to fight for at least two weeks before the next unit could show up, so our war stocks was what they expected we would need for two weeks of combat. I would guess (and it is only a guess) after they started to let plans like that slide (and going to central supply) that there would still be at least one full combat load, but maybe not much more. No this next part is just my thought so could be very wrong. But my thought is if they did it smart, they would have each unit have it, but going up would still include there lower units, as about the only thing that can be said for how much ammo you go through is that it is more than you think. So using my old unit as an example the brigade would have there two weeks, but then the division would still include that brigade in its plans for how much to keep on hand, so if the divisions plan is that it will be resupplied within a week, and it has four brigades it would keep four brigades worth for a week, or one brigade for four weeks.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Some would depend on what training could be done at the base. For example I was sent to Camp Rilea OR once, they have a demo limit of .25lbs so they do not need much demo for training, but I also know that they have a guard engineer unit there. They would have full demo load for war, but not training. Training ammo is usually allotted at the start of the training year, and then issued out as needed over the year. In the event of the zombie hoard I think that they would use it as well, but depending on how much has been used there may not be much or could just have gotten it. It is normally stored at the AHA (Ammo Holding Area) or ASP (Ammo Supply Point) in special bunkers.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I think that you may have some spray and pray early on, but the ones who did it would die early on. It would be the ones who took the head shoots would live, the Marines may take it at a longer range than the typical Soldier, but even with the Marines saying that everyone is a rifleman first, that does not mean that they are going to be taking head shoots at 600 meters. I think that automatic weapons (IE. crew served) would still be used in full auto mode, as most are not supper accurate if used as semi-auto, so use them to thin the herd at longer range, even if you do not drop them you may slow them down.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Towed artillery I would agree would be mostly useless, self-propeld guns would not depending on the ammo they have on hand. Dropping an HE round at what would be danger close to dismounts does not hurt the armored vehicle, does it kill very many zombies? I do not know but does damage them, is that good or bad? Again I do not know, they are likely going to be slower now, but also may be harder to see. They did have canister rounds for the 105mm, and the 155mm, what is on hand that is a different story.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

I would say that they would be a lot like artillery, the ground ones would be less useful, the armored ones more. However they are going to be in some ways less useful than the artillery as they are open when firing, so zombies could get in.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

I agree that I think Airforce bases would be more or less useless. But not for the same reasons. As I was saying under artillery I am not sure that HE/Frag would be useless (or worse), they may not be the best, but I could see them having some use, the larger the group the better. ICM (bomblets) would be good, and yes I am guessing that they do not have as many as HE bombs, but we use lots of them so I would guess they have a fair number on hand. Napalm I would guess is the one they have the least of and it could work but I see so side affects, once the zombie is on fire how long tell it dies? What else is it going to set on fire? Now the reasons that I think it would be more or less useless, I do not think that they have enough troops to secure the base, they probably have the lowest trained ground troops of all, and they are the highest maintenance of all. How many spare parts do they have on hand? On my second trip to the sand box, we got delayed for a week as they did not have a simple (what the crew said) part on hand at the air base. It took them the week to get it shipped to them, and then about ten minutes to replace the part. Could they have flow with out it? I am guessing yes, but as it was a common part (again according to the crew) what about the parts that they can not fly with? So my guess is that within a week of the Zombie Outbreak taking over they would be out of parts and grounded, if they had not already been overran.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

I am guessing that they do not have enough space for all, and like all bases could not be defended, but I could see some of the ships being a good starting point. It would take some planing and moving of supplies, but for some time a very good option.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

The bigger issue I think would be the lack of guns (not small arms) on the ships. If you are sending troops to the shore for supplies and have already used your missiles (very small number with no reloads for most) then what.