Happy St Patricks Day!

[jester]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Churches were indeed a target but that also how we came to have some very nice fortified churches (very common in certain regions). Marc, you also forgot about the war of religions, french revolution and the various revolutions that spread from it.

The problem with family name is that they are fairly recent except for the nobility. Up to the 18th century most people were registered without family name:
Paul son of Peter and Magdalena, born on the 4th days after easter. Brought to god by Paul and Mary (and that's when you are lucky).

Then, when civil registration became mendatory, family name were added much in the way they were for slaves.

Further;

The evolution of language, pronunciation, coupled with illiteracy and misspelling would cause names to change. And then translated from one language to the other, or just spelling it phoneticaly, and that is how our family name changed when we came to the U.S. because here the sound starts with "W" and not the "OUE"

And again the evolution of languages and spelling. Anyone try reading things written in their original form from the 16th Century, or how about from the 10th Century.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by jester

Further;

The evolution of language, pronunciation, coupled with illiteracy and misspelling would cause names to change. And then translated from one language to the other, or just spelling it phoneticaly, and that is how our family name changed when we came to the U.S. because here the sound starts with "W" and not the "OUE"

And again the evolution of languages and spelling. Anyone try reading things written in their original form from the 16th Century, or how about from the 10th Century.

I know my grand father was the only one to retain his original name among his family. A clerk made a mistake and the state always refused to admit it despite proofs and legal documents. Became a problem when his father died.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

And again the evolution of languages and spelling. Anyone try reading things written in their original form from the 16th Century, or how about from the 10th Century.

I tried unsuccessfully to read Beowulf in Old English. Absolute failure. I had a teacher in 8th grade that played a tape of someone reading it in Old English. I understood maybe every tenth word.

That's sort of what I wonder about Star Trek -- would they really be speaking anything intelligible to us in the 21st century?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That's sort of what I wonder about Star Trek -- would they really be speaking anything intelligible to us in the 21st century?

Totally different situation now compared to mediaeval times. We have audio and audio visual recording now, not to mention widespread literacy - slows down language drift.

[Legbreaker]

And they've got handheld translators.

That, and it's essential to the plot everyone understands each other...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Totally different situation now compared to mediaeval times. We have audio and audio visual recording now, not to mention widespread literacy - slows down language drift.

On a slightly different tack, I've also heard that about human evolution -- that with modern medicine and culture we've short-circuited the human physical evolution process and we are no longer evolving physically.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

Totally different situation now compared to mediaeval times. We have audio and audio visual recording now, not to mention widespread literacy - slows down language drift.

You right and, as a result, the level of information losses have increased tremendously (at the historical level). Because of that, we only keep the final draft and lose a large amount of information. Not to mention our inhability to access previous materials and the fact that these equipments break down.

One thing happen in France a few years ago that illustrate that perfectly. A commando broke in a major tax collector office in charge of controling vineyards nationwide. The commando stole all the hard disks from the computers. As a result, all informations were lost and the tax office was unable to get the informations back. The reason is simple, nobody was making paper copies anymore. A few years ago, that same commando would have had to steal at least three paper copies from three different locations.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Targan

Totally different situation now compared to mediaeval times. We have audio and audio visual recording now, not to mention widespread literacy - slows down language drift.

Mmmmm... I dont' really think that your appreciation is totally right. Language drift exists, and this is specially true for the non-hegemonic languages. One important cause for the language drift is the coexistence between different languages in the same geographical areas, and the demographical balance between their speakers. The english language used in Australia is hegemonic and without important competence, but the future evolution of, per example, the english spoken in the south of the United States, with its daily coexistence with the spanish, could be very different. Of course, the same is true about the spanish talked in Mexico or in the southern states.

Catalans are sometimes specially sensitive to the matter of language drift. We mainly consider ourselves a nation without state, being inside Spanish state. Our language have not the same protection as the Spanish nor the same demographical weight (we are now about 7 millions). The influence of the spanish language is strong, specially due to the media, and the adoption of spanish terms is sometimes inevitable. At long term it can cause such an important drift that the the survival of our language is uncertain. I know that my point of view can seem somewhat "provincial", in my little corner of the world. But some of us have a day to day struggle to keep unnecessary variations of catalan at minimal to transmit it to our children. We have the conviction that a language implies more than words and grammar. So, language drift is day-to-day matter. Happily, catalan enjoys a good health in Internet.

[Mohoender]

I remained at the information level (especially as I misunderstood some of the point made by Targan ) but Marc perfectly illustrated his point. I have the same concern than him as I wish to see my daughters learn some "Provencal". I am from Wallon decent (my parents) and I already lost that.

The problem with my daughters learning "Provencal" is that, despite government official position, it is fairly hard to find teachers.

And, Marc, I don't find your position to be "provincial" in any way as I'm convinced that some kind globalisation is only possible if we preserve the local cultures as well. Catalonia is a good exemple of that. The current mistake is to play one against the other (IMO, of course).

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I remained at the information level (especially as I misunderstood some of the point made by Targan ) but Marc perfectly illustrated his point. I have the same concern than him as I wish to see my daughters learn some "Provencal". I am from Wallon decent (my parents) and I already lost that.

The problem with my daughters learning "Provencal" is that, despite government official position, it is fairly hard to find teachers.

And, Marc, I don't find your position to be "provincial" in any way as I'm convinced that some kind globalisation is only possible if we preserve the local cultures as well. Catalonia is a good exemple of that. The current mistake is to play one against the other (IMO, of course).

Agreed. I wish to occitans and provençals the best of lucks in keeping your language with all of its dialects alive. I know your situation is difficult, but it seems that the future may be better. For Catalans, Provença and specially OccitÃÂ*nia are like distant cousins. Or not so distant. The occitan has been considered in our new statute of autonomy as co official language, as the occitan is spoken in one of our regions (Val d'Aran).

I remember the first time I were in OccitÃÂ*nia with my wife. We crossed the Pirenees on foot, from Berga to Montsegur, covering the 200 km of the Chemin des Bonshommes. Once in Montsegur, we became somewhat disappointed when we discover the limited presence of the occitanian in day-to-day life. I suppose we have the innocent hope that the old ties have prevailed across the Pirennes, despite the state borders and that we could ask in catalan and being answered in occitan . It was upsetting to have the feeling to be able to read and understand some of the troubadour poems in "lingua d'oc" of their historical heritage better than some of the locals. A useful warning for us to keep our language in use.

Anyway, in our second visit to France (a route from Carcassone to Cahors) we have a pleasant chance to find and visit a school were the children were educated in occitanian. You still have a chance to keep these languages alive.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Marc

Anyway, in our second visit to France (a route from Carcassone to Cahors) we have a pleasant chance to find and visit a school were the children were educated in occitanian. You still have a chance to keep these languages alive.

I do agree. This was achieved not so long ago (something like the late 80's) for every regional language. However, it should be allowed in public schools but this is more difficult. The law grants that right to all regions. You'll even have teachers around. However, you need to be really motivated if you want the minister to recognize the right for these teachers to teach in public schools. Then, if one of your kid wants to present a regional language as a second language to final examination it's equally difficult for them. They have the right to have a regional language as second language but most academy will not grant them the right to pass the exam (on the ground that there are not enough teachers). The problem with France is that we have tons of laws and only apply a small part of them. Still we are a bit further ahead than you but that's normal we started earlier.

That's like women issue in France. I recently discovered that the same rights have been granted to women and men since 1946 through our constitution (in all maters). Still we are far from achieving that in every day life. The military has granted them access to all position only in the late 1990's, they remain under paid. None of our political party grant them the legal quorum... 62 years that France (Liberté Egalité Fraternité), country of human rights, does not even comply to its own constitution.