US Air Force Locations

[Olefin]

that is one area where my GM seriously differed from the canon writers - we basically used HW as good reference material but did not use what it said would happen to the country - for a multitude of reasons that have been previously debated here endlessly - but the units falling apart with enemy troops still on US soil being a big part of it - I highly doubt the 49th would just sit there and go to pot and let Texas stay part of Mexico without at least one last attempt to kick some butt for instance

and I look at Robinson as one place where the canon steps on its own toes - if all there is for that refinery is a trickle whats the big deal if its only down to one percent of capacity? One percent is over 2000 barrels of oil per day - 84000 gallons of oil products - that's a hell of a lot of gasoline and diesel and jet fuel and lubricants even at just one percent

and there are single wells in IL that are producing and have been producing 1700 barrels a day in that time period - so that one single well could just about give enough for one percent all on its own

in other words Illinois is hardly a wasteland with gas as rare as hens teeth even if all it can do is one percent - and before that accident it was at a lot more than that - something tells me if it was even at 20 percent there would have been a lot of recruiting to defend that kind of capacity - especially for an Armored Brigade that lives and dies on fuel

[RN7]

Now Olefin if we base our game of canon then we sort had have to stick with what canon says. A bit of expansion or filling in the blanks from what canon says or leaves out is one thing, but only to a point.

If we have a functional oil refinery and oil wells pumping out the quantities of fuel that you have listed for a number of years then we have the means to fuel a mechanised and motorised army and a sizeable air force on a relatively unlimited basis. If that is the case and MilGov is pumping out those levels of fuel since the TGM then the entire Mid-West and the Great Lake states will be cleared of any effective CivGov, New America or major marauder or unlawful forces well before 2000. Also it will affect other parts of America. With large quantities of refined fuel produced at Robinson then crude from Illinois, Oklahoma and Louisiana will allow MilGov to raise a powerful and motorised force to force the Mexicans out of the South-western states very quickly and the Russians will be running for the Bering Straits. Is this the situation in 2000?

Some information from Howling Wilderness

"The brigade (194th Armoured) main asset is the refinery at Robinson, Illinois, which is currently occupied with a force of 200 soldiers and five AFVs. This refinery (and the few functional oil fields surrounding it) is currently a major source of fuel for MilGov, and the brigade considers its defence and continued operations a major priority."

Canon states there are a few functional oil fields surrounding it, nothing more.

"only a trickle of oil is produced by the fields of southern Illinois, but it's enough to keep the tanks and other vehicles of MilGov's Mississippi Valley enclave operating".

That is fairly self explanatory.

"A recent accident (blamed on a lack of properly trained operating personnel) severely damaged the plant's last operating 'cat cracker', and the refinery is now only operating at about one percent of its designed capacity. The brigade formally traded gasoline for food with other communities in Illinois and Indiana, but the accident has forced it to choose between cutting back severely on its fuel shipments to Memphis."

MilGov does not have an abundance of trained personnel to operate and maintain the refinery or oil wells. It has also affected MilGov fuel shipments to Memphis.

" The brigade (197th infantry) is now responsible for administration and protection of western Tennessee (within 100 kilometres of the Mississippi). Refugees and marauders from the south and southeast will soon put increasing pressure on the brigade. How long it can remain in control of this area under the strain of these factors is no longer certain"

MilGov is having trouble controlling this region due to refugees and marauders.

"the large armored contingent will be helpful, but as food becomes more and more scarce, ethanol fuel (distilled from edible materials like grain) will have to be replaced by the less fuel efficient methanol (distilled from wood pulp and other inedible plant materials), and the range and effectiveness of the armor (197th Infantry Brigade) will be reduced to a considerable extent"

The 197th Infantry Brigade in Memphis is no longer receiving no fuel supplies from Robinson and is having to resort to using distilled methanol in its vehicles.

"In any case the refinery at Robinson will soon become a target for marauders from the south and east, and this concerns the brigade (194th Armored) commander"

If the heavily armed MilGov base at Robinson is a target for marauders, what does that say about the security situation in Illinois and the security of the dispersed oil wells that are littered across the remote countryside of the state?.

" He (the commander of the 194th Armored Brigade) is rumoured to be considering a move to evacuate Cairo in favor of Robinson and then sever all ties with MilGov"

The commander in Robinson is clearly not that bothered about supplying MilGov with oil.

[Olefin]

As I said before HW is one module that has been discussed to death and whose many plot holes and contradictions with earlier Modules I won't even start to get into. As for your earlier points - one refinery operating at full capacity is hardly going to be the huge change to canon you point it out as being. Would it being fully operational give the 194th and the 197th enough fuel to be fully operational while still leaving enough left over to provide a limited amount of jet fuel for MilGov - the answer is yes. Would that mean a huge change to the game that you have stated? The obvious answer is no. All by itself the Robinson refinery running at full capacity couldn't even begin to make enough fuel to change the strategic picture in the US. But what it could do is provide enough fuel to make possible limited transport flights and the occasional use of remaining attack aircraft. It could give the 194th and the 197th and most likely the 49th the fuel to operate and do proper patrols and maybe limited offensive actions - but that's about it.

Meaning it helps MilGov stabilize a limited area and have some air ops possible - which is hardly the complete game changer you paint. If you think that then if the Soviets get their hands on the refinery in Texas then surely the Mexican and Soviet flag will be flying over half the country soon. It takes a lot more than one refinery working at full capacity to change the game and the world as much as you describe

[Olefin]

as for maintaining the oil wells - most of the oil wells in Illinois are old fashioned wells that are on individual people's property - wells based on old technology that don't break down that often, run in many places by small companies - we aren't talking nuclear reactors here or computerized pumping systems - many of them are using tech straight out of the 1940's to run

now the refinery is different - but again you can refine gas and oil with teapot refineries in small quantities - and since you mention canon, per canon that is exactly what the Libyans are doing - so if they can do it so can the good people of Illinois - you dont need skilled techs for that

and no matter how much fuel the refinery there is processing - that mechanized and mobile army that uses it to drive out every invader doesn't exist anymore - and if it did exist you would need a hell of a lot more than just Robinson to provide fuel to it - not when that oil its processing needs to make jet fuel, diesel fuel, lubricants (which per canon is what most refineries still in production are making so that the vehicles that burn alcohol can keep running - no matter how much ethanol you make you still need oil for the engine), gasoline, etc.. - so its not all going into the fuel tanks of MilGov

and the other thing that HW gets wrong - and thats where it contradicts earlier canon statements - is that it seems that MilGov isnt fighting very hard to keep the areas that are still producing fuel protected and going concerns - pulling out of Bakersfield, letting the Oklahoma wells and refineries get overrun, letting the 194th waste away and not reinforce it with everything they had to protect Robinson and the oil wells in Illinois when they had tens of thousands of newly arrived troops in VA

and how does it contradict it - because there are multiple statements in different modules that state where there is oil you will find the war still going on and that is where you will find operating aircraft and tanks and vehicles - which is why the US is fighting so hard in Iran still when they left Europe to its own devices - because that is where the oil is

yet in the US, MilGov, with enemy forces still sitting in Alaska and the Southwest and New America on the rise, doesnt put everything it has into guarding whats left of that fuel and the refineries - and with the food situation in the US what they are doing is especially dumb because oil means you can run tractors and plant seed and harvest crops and you can do it without starving your people by having to do it with ethanol

so you bring home 43,000 men and dont send a bunch of them to make sure that no matter what you hold onto those remaining oil fields and refineries and keep them going when doing so is probably the best bet you have to be able to get in a decent crop and also get the Southwest back in the process? Let alone why waste your men on an offensive to kick New America out of the Ozarks and then not send reinforcements for the two most important oil producing areas you have left and one of the biggest refineries you have left? I would think that making sure you can still operate aircraft and be able to plant crops a lot more efficiently is worth at least a couple of thousand men at least.

This is a game about what was then a plausible possible future when it was originally written - and if you so then you really need to have military commanders not make completely implausible decisions. Especially when you have MilGov which is not under civilian command and thus can ignore political needs for purely strategic ones. Like being able to keep its few remaining tanks and armored vehicles in the field and to be able to plant crops to feed those 43,000 men it just brought home by protecting the oil that can do that. That's a decision a military chief would make - abandoning it is not.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

As I said before HW is one module that has been discussed to death and whose many plot holes and contradictions with earlier Modules I won't even start to get into. As for your earlier points - one refinery operating at full capacity is hardly going to be the huge change to canon you point it out as being. Would it being fully operational give the 194th and the 197th enough fuel to be fully operational while still leaving enough left over to provide a limited amount of jet fuel for MilGov - the answer is yes. Would that mean a huge change to the game that you have stated? The obvious answer is no. All by itself the Robinson refinery running at full capacity couldn't even begin to make enough fuel to change the strategic picture in the US. But what it could do is provide enough fuel to make possible limited transport flights and the occasional use of remaining attack aircraft. It could give the 194th and the 197th and most likely the 49th the fuel to operate and do proper patrols and maybe limited offensive actions - but that's about it.

Meaning it helps MilGov stabilize a limited area and have some air ops possible - which is hardly the complete game changer you paint. If you think that then if the Soviets get their hands on the refinery in Texas then surely the Mexican and Soviet flag will be flying over half the country soon. It takes a lot more than one refinery working at full capacity to change the game and the world as much as you describe

According the Red Star/Lone Star the Soviets are in control of the Port Isabel refinery, but the offshore Gulfwind Forty oil rig which is still connected to it is under the control of a large Mexican criminal organisation and a small group of Texan marauders.

Also what the Soviets have in Texas and the rest of the south-west is all that they have. Even Soviet forces in Alaska/Western Canada have no hope of reinforcement from the Soviet Union. If they get regular oil supplies it will help them to consolidate their defensive position but no more. The Mexicans are not in much better shape.

MilGov on the other hand has access to about 90% of the remaining US military assets in CONUS, and a great deal of the surviving resources and population of the United States. If Robinson is running from the end of 1997 into 2000 with a regular and large oil supply on the scale you are implying without any real threat, then you have a very sound platform to rebuild the US military in this region. The tanks/AFV listing of each unit is what they have running, not other vehicles that could also be running if there is fuel available. The US military had thousands of tanks, and tens of thousands of other armoured, support and lighter armoured vehicles. Many of these never left CONUS and all of them have by no means been destroyed since the nuclear strikes.

With Robinson running before its accident in 2001 MilGov would have raised a large mechanised and well armed force, and if you add air power then CivGov and New America won't stand a chance. By 2000 the Mid-West and Great Lakes should be totally under the control of MilGov. MilGov would also have expanding its authority into New England, the Mid-Atlantic states and the south, and across the west as far as the frontlines in Texas, California and maybe into Canada.

[kalos72]

The difference here is reality vs canon.

Canon was designed to make the outlook bleak. Its suppose to feel like the end is near and every decision the PC's make could mean the end of it all.

But the reality is, if even 1% of the possible oil in Illinois was pumping, MILGOV should have been able to control much larger sections of the country and the rebuilding process wouldn't be so "apocalyptic".

But I would argue that canon doesnt say that there isn't any fuel, just a trickle. 1% of total production could be construed as a trickle. But MILGOV has been inadept at doing anything with the resources it has at its disposal.

If they weren't, the look feel of the game wouldn't be the same...

[Legbreaker]

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

And if you ignore HW and Kidnapped then its in a totally different state - I prefer to go with the modules that actually show MilGov and CivGov are starting to return order - and not with a drought that would kill off the country for good no matter what they do or with military units somehow unable to recruit in their own country when the Germans and Brits and others were able to do so for years of war in their countries

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

So in your game does the world die in 2000/2001? Cause if you follow HW to the letter like your implying everyone should, no one will be able to grow enough food to feed themselves in 2000/2001.

Germany UK France, etc will all survive with arguably more nuclear tonnage being dropped on them, but the US will die. MILGOV/CIVGOV will implode and the rest of the country falls into Morrow-esque type of world.

The FACT is no canon reference says "the MILGOV only had 10000 gallons of diesel", the writers kept it vague for many reasons. One, they didnt want to spend months doing the research and two to allow the players some room to grow and move around in the general outline they devised.

Who wants to play through a scenario that, regardless of what they do or how well they perform, their government still dies and the US is lost? Thats what HW does to the world IMHO...

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the canon does not say the Soviets have control of the refinery or that the marauders and criminals have control of the offshore platform - what it says is that is what the criminals and marauders have control of both and that the Soviets are trying to take both over - and that if they do get both (i.e. unless the players can stop them) then the Soviets will have access to all kinds of fuel including aviation fuel for their grounded attack helicopters - give them that fuel and its a whole new ballgame in Texas for them

Same for the Mexican troops there - get access to all that fuel and basically you can kiss the Grange and other resistance forces goodbye - and there goes Kingsley and Texas

and its pretty obvious that Cummings and CivGov did have access to oil and fuel from 1997 to 2000 - they fought the Mexican invasion force and there were air battles as part of that invasion - and they shipped several divisions overseas as well as fought the Soviets and Mexicans that whole time

so they did have that fuel at least thru 1999 - and eventually what was left of the grid went down and stopped most of what production was left - one refinery cant do it all - it cant make fuel, lubricants, bunker and diesel oil for power, etc. for the entire Midwest- but what it can do is keep a small amount of planes in the air, provide fuel for the tanks they have left and provide fuel to grow food for where MilGov has its troops that can get that fuel and probably keep the lights on in a few select factories making mortar rounds and spare parts and reloads