Berlin in 1996

[RN7]

Thanks Jason that was a great article.

However in T2K this Soviet plan for an occupation of West Berlin would have been thrown out as the Germans themselves decided to reunify, and the NVA changes side very quickly. So if the Soviets won't "liberate" West Berlin themselves then there is only the remnant loyalist regime and security forces in East Berlin to take on the Allied Garrisons in West Berlin.

Its hard to find information about how much was stockpiled in West Berlin. There is a NY Times article that states that there was 300,000 tons of food and supplies worth $480 million stockpiled in 280 warehouses across West Berlin. And that is what the government of West Berlin stockpiled alone, not the Allied garrisons.

[Jason Weiser]

Originally Posted by RN7

Thanks Jason that was a great article.

However in T2K this Soviet plan for an occupation of West Berlin would have been thrown out as the Germans themselves decided to reunify, and the NVA changes side very quickly. So if the Soviets won't "liberate" West Berlin themselves then there is only the remnant loyalist regime and security forces in East Berlin to take on the Allied Garrisons in West Berlin.

My point exactly, most of the East German force that was slated to take West Berlin was pulled from a variety of sources:

First, there was the NVA's 1st MRD, which would have invariably joined the revolt. Next, was the various formations of the People's Police Alert Battalions (read: well armed riot cops, whose loyalty would have been suspect at best, and at worst, would have certainly balked at taking on NVA troops armed with AFV and all manner of artillery), the Frontier Troops (same boat at the People's Police, and the NVA might have enjoyed gunning them down, these were the hated Grenztruppen, after all.), and elements of the "Combat Groups of the Working Class" (party militia meant as a counter-balance to the Army and the Stasi, read more like a communist version of the Volkssturm to me.)

In short, could the Soviets have trusted anyone enough to launch an assault on West Berlin? Probably not. And more likely, their Motor Rifle Brigade at Karlhorst would have been under siege as some, if not all of these units, turned on them. And where might the Willi Sanger battalion (which I believe was expanding about this time), have come down? All in all, the Allies in West Berlin might have been more than happy to simply seal the borders themselves and hunker down, hoping nobody noticed them..

Its hard to find information about how much was stockpiled in West Berlin. There is a NY Times article that states that there was 300,000 tons of food and supplies worth $480 million stockpiled in 280 warehouses across West Berlin. And that is what the government of West Berlin stockpiled alone, not the Allied garrisons.

I spoke to some folks who might have been in a position to know. Those were the answers I got. Frankly, I would think the West Berlin garrison would have run out of people before they ran out of supplies, there wasn't enough of them and they were not, in my opinion, well armed enough to deny the East Germans forever..in a normal scenario. In a T2K scenario? Their best defense is to scream their neutrality to the heavens and hope neither side notices them till the Bundeswehr arrives, or sanity breaks out. Of course, once the wider war starts...that is a whole other kettle of fish, but again, are the Soviets going to spend lives to take West Berlin when they have three US Heavy Corps, along with two British Corps and at least a division's worth of Canadians come crashing over the IGB to deal with?

Something tells me that within days of NATO's entry into the war, a decision is made in the Kremlin to write off Germany. It cannot be held with the current correlation of forces. Best to withdraw across the Oder and dig in, hoping that they can reinforce in the spring and counterattack. Of course, NATO gets there first, but in short, by December of 1996, Germany is a lost cause to the Warsaw Pact. Anyone who can read a map can see that. And the Poles and Czechs worried about whether or not the Soviets will defend them? What is the better option in their eyes? Surrender to a resurgent Germany? No, they experienced that already once this century, better the devil they know...

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

In short, could the Soviets have trusted anyone enough to launch an assault on West Berlin? Probably not. And more likely, their Motor Rifle Brigade at Karlhorst would have been under siege as some, if not all of these units, turned on them. And where might the Willi Sanger battalion (which I believe was expanding about this time), have come down? All in all, the Allies in West Berlin might have been more than happy to simply seal the borders themselves and hunker down, hoping nobody noticed them.....

That's pretty much it, the Soviets would have to do it themselves and with the way the war is developing can they afford to divert military resources?

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

I spoke to some folks who might have been in a position to know. Those were the answers I got. Frankly, I would think the West Berlin garrison would have run out of people before they ran out of supplies, there wasn't enough of them and they were not, in my opinion, well armed enough to deny the East Germans forever..in a normal scenario. In a T2K scenario? Their best defense is to scream their neutrality to the heavens and hope neither side notices them till the Bundeswehr arrives, or sanity breaks out. Of course, once the wider war starts...that is a whole other kettle of fish, but again, are the Soviets going to spend lives to take West Berlin when they have three US Heavy Corps, along with two British Corps and at least a division's worth of Canadians come crashing over the IGB to deal with?

Once NATO crosses the IGB the game is up for them in Germany.

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

Something tells me that within days of NATO's entry into the war, a decision is made in the Kremlin to write off Germany. It cannot be held with the current correlation of forces. Best to withdraw across the Oder and dig in, hoping that they can reinforce in the spring and counterattack. Of course, NATO gets there first, but in short, by December of 1996, Germany is a lost cause to the Warsaw Pact. Anyone who can read a map can see that. And the Poles and Czechs worried about whether or not the Soviets will defend them? What is the better option in their eyes? Surrender to a resurgent Germany? No, they experienced that already once this century, better the devil they know...

I would agree, but in T2K they continue to fight.

The Soviets and the East German regime have a great deal of resources in East Germany, especially in the eastern districts such as the (now) state of Brandenburg. Underground bunkers all over in places such as Potsdam. The Falkenhagen military bunker complex just west of the Oder was the largest Soviet command and control centre outside of the Soviet Union. Falkenhagen was actually built by the Nazis, and the Soviets just took it over and expanded it. When Berlin is captured the Soviets keep fighting and the war doesn't end when NATO reaches the Oder in the New Year. Advent Crown happened in the spring of 1997 and the Germans and NATO keeps on marching through Poland. Why?

[Jason Weiser]

No question RN, what I guess I didn't make clear was this:

The Poles and the Czechs will not drop out of the war, not with the threat of a resurgent Germany. NATO stops at the Oder in December 1996 for a variety of reasons:

1) To let their logistical structure catch up with their armies

2) Because river crossings in a European winter aren't the easiest thing to pull off..ask the US Army with the Sava River.

3) Because in some corners, there would be a feeling that there should be a pause to attempt a political solution to the fighting in Europe. Basically, present the Soviets with a fait accompli and assure the Poles and Czechs (as well as some reluctant NATO allies) that Germany was going to be kept in check via NATO (although how successful that had been is now a matter for debate, no?)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The Soviets had at least two closed towns near Berlin with at least part of their reason for existing being to keep a "friendly" eye on the city. These towns were off limits to Germans, self contained and were almost independent from East Germany in terms of food and supplies.

The first, Vogelsang, was a barracks town built by the Soviets in the village district of the same name. It lies just a little over 50km north from the centre of Berlin and had a tank division based there.
Vogelsang is particularly interesting because apparently during the course of its occupation by the Soviets, they stationed and/or stored nuclear missiles there on a few ocassions, the last being from 1983 till 1988.
Some links
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20079147
http://www.uncubemagazine.com/blog/14820889
https://yearinberlin.com/2013/05/08/...et-ghost-town/
http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2014/...-missiles.html
This last two links may prove useful for this particular discussion as one is the website of an Englishman who spent time living in Berlin and exploring the city while the other is the site of an urban explorer devoted to Berlin.

The second town, Wünsdorf, was about 40km south of the centre of Berlin and was a Soviet headquarters town with a nearby airfield. Wünsdorf is particularly interesting because it was the site of the WW2 German regime's Maybach I and Maybach II high command bunkers (which were mostly destroyed by the Soviets but some buildings and bunkers were left intact and re-used by them). It had a rail link that ran directly to Moscow and was apparently the largest Soviet base outside the USSR (estimated at between 70,000 and 60,000 personnel).
The townsite has been somewhat re-purposed as a book sellers marketplace.
Some links
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-800658.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/14/wo...potential.html
http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2013/...ans-lenin.html
https://lostandforgottenberlin.wordp...orf-waldstade/
Again, the last two links are particularly relevant to this discussion, although the first is already mentioned above. The second is also an urban explorer's site devoted to Berlin.
For anyone visiting the area in the future, tours of the town can be taken: -
http://www.buecherstadt.com/en/bunker/
http://www.hivino.travel/discover-ge...book-town/e407

Slightly off-topic but those links could also prove useful for anyone running the Contested Ground Studios rpgs Hot War or more particularly Cold City.
http://www.contestedground.co.uk/

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The Soviets had at least two closed towns near Berlin with at least part of their reason for existing being to keep a "friendly" eye on the city. These towns were off limits to Germans, self contained and were almost independent from East Germany in terms of food and supplies.

The first, Vogelsang, was a barracks town built by the Soviets in the village district of the same name. It lies just a little over 50km north from the centre of Berlin and had a tank division based there.
Vogelsang is particularly interesting because apparently during the course of its occupation by the Soviets, they stationed and/or stored nuclear missiles there on a few ocassions, the last being from 1983 till 1988.
Some links
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20079147
http://www.uncubemagazine.com/blog/14820889
https://yearinberlin.com/2013/05/08/...et-ghost-town/
http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2014/...-missiles.html
This last two links may prove useful for this particular discussion as one is the website of an Englishman who spent time living in Berlin and exploring the city while the other is the site of an urban explorer devoted to Berlin.

The second town, Wünsdorf, was about 40km south of the centre of Berlin and was a Soviet headquarters town with a nearby airfield. Wünsdorf is particularly interesting because it was the site of the WW2 German regime's Maybach I and Maybach II high command bunkers (which were mostly destroyed by the Soviets but some buildings and bunkers were left intact and re-used by them). It had a rail link that ran directly to Moscow and was apparently the largest Soviet base outside the USSR (estimated at between 70,000 and 60,000 personnel).
The townsite has been somewhat re-purposed as a book sellers marketplace.
Some links
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-800658.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/14/wo...potential.html
http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2013/...ans-lenin.html
https://lostandforgottenberlin.wordp...orf-waldstade/
Again, the last two links are particularly relevant to this discussion, although the first is already mentioned above. The second is also an urban explorer's site devoted to Berlin.
For anyone visiting the area in the future, tours of the town can be taken: -
http://www.buecherstadt.com/en/bunker/
http://www.hivino.travel/discover-ge...book-town/e407

Slightly off-topic but those links could also prove useful for anyone running the Contested Ground Studios rpgs Hot War or more particularly Cold City.
http://www.contestedground.co.uk/

Nice links.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

No question RN, what I guess I didn't make clear was this:

The Poles and the Czechs will not drop out of the war, not with the threat of a resurgent Germany. NATO stops at the Oder in December 1996 for a variety of reasons:

The Czechs and Poles for obvious reasons will fight as they worried about a reunited and rearmed Germany. But the Soviet don't abandon their positions in East Germany and retreat to the Oder after NATO crosses the IGB. They fight on and also in Berlin, and are forced to retreat to the Oder by NATO.

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

3) Because in some corners, there would be a feeling that there should be a pause to attempt a political solution to the fighting in Europe. Basically, present the Soviets with a fait accompli and assure the Poles and Czechs (as well as some reluctant NATO allies) that Germany was going to be kept in check via NATO (although how successful that had been is now a matter for debate, no?)

I think we talked about this on this thread.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1038

Or was it this thread..

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5197


However if NATO and the Germans were in control of East Germany and were content with that, why did they cross the Oder-Neisse Line into Poland in the Spring of 1997. The Soviets must have clearly not accepted the fait accompli that was present to them in Germany, as they keep fighting until they are forced to the Oder, and they must have intended to re-invade Germany and where building forces to do so for NATO to attack Poland.

[Jason Weiser]

Originally Posted by RN7

The Czechs and Poles for obvious reasons will fight as they worried about a reunited and rearmed Germany. But the Soviet don't abandon their positions in East Germany and retreat to the Oder after NATO crosses the IGB. They fight on and also in Berlin, and are forced to retreat to the Oder by NATO.

However if NATO and the Germans were in control of East Germany and were content with that, why did they cross the Oder-Neisse Line into Poland in the Spring of 1997. The Soviets must have clearly not accepted the fait accompli that was present to them in Germany, as they keep fighting until they are forced to the Oder, and they must have intended to re-invade Germany and where building forces to do so for NATO to attack Poland.

It might have been a combination of factors?

1. The Poles and the Czechs are not taking any deal where Germany reunifies by force. No way, no how.

2. The Soviets attacked Norway in December, which must have really scared the crap out of the remaining members of NATO (See, the Russians just can't be trusted!)

3. Two large armies are in close proximity...incidents are bound to happen...