State Guards in T2K (Includes User-made Unit)

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

This thread brings up an interesting argument in the Twilight2000 timeline. There is this "idea" that frequently surfaces that people would be running around with home-made muskets because all of the firearms and ammunition were either used up or destroyed.

Both the US and Russia have enough small arms stockpiled to re-equip their armies THREE TIMES (although the M1, Mosin, and SKS would probably make an appearance in the third round). I did a rifle count at Ft. Indiantown Gap in the early 1990's for COG (continuity of government). There were 25K M16s (all M16A1s), 10K M14s, 1K M60s, and 1K assorted pistols (M1911s & .38 Model 10s) in this ONE site. There would also be a great number of "battlefield pickups" floating around to arm new recruits with. Finally, the US civilian population has HUGE numbers of both paramilitary and hunting rifles to draw on.
Since the Exchange was of only a limited nature, many of these "stockpiles" would still be intact.

Heavy weapons would be another story, though. From the beginning, this would be a "come as you are" or "bring what you got" war (with regards to the high-tech machines) The time it takes to assemble an M1 Abrams, M109 Paladin, or any jet in the modern age would preclude anything more than replacing "battlefield casualties" during the war. This means that older vehicles would be put back in service to cover losses or equip second line troops fairly quickly.

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

[rcaf_777]

I built this AK-47 and it's legal and totally untraceable?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...building-party

Another Option

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I built this AK-47 and it's legal and totally untraceable?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...building-party

Another Option

This actually happens. A huge number of FALs were also built like this in the US during the early 90's as well. The preference was for the "Inch Model" (British parts kits) as it was considered by many aficionados to be more accurate, but a great many "Metrics" were built as well.

[ArmySGT.]

One can also purchase an 80% AR-15 lower and take it to a build party. There are jigs and fixtures to machine one completely via CNC or manual mill.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

One can also purchase an 80% AR-15 lower and take it to a build party. There are jigs and fixtures to machine one completely via CNC or manual mill.

One CNC machine will pay for itself with six or more machinings.

[Pinhead Slim]

I've got two ways of thinking with the M16EZ personally.

If it stays in the game at all, I change the wording so that the government sent out "Barreled upper assemblies and part kits", with the added fun of the parts kits notoriously missing one or two key parts. Although I'm more of a fan of option two.

Option two being that the M16EZ never existed at all, and everyone who would have got M16EZ kits got surplus weapons just like you guys are saying. M1 Carbines, Garands, and 1903 rifles all around!

When my games stick around in the US I have a tendency to make M1 Carbines the "default" gun of all sorts of people. Farmers, raiders, low level military/high level police, etc.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Pinhead Slim

Option two being that the M16EZ never existed at all, and everyone who would have got M16EZ kits got surplus weapons just like you guys are saying. M1 Carbines, Garands, and 1903 rifles all around!

M1917 Enfields too, given that CMP still gets a couple dozen a year that were loaned by the Army to veterans' groups. It makes me wonder if there are any BARs still around. Between the 1903s, 1917s, Garands, and BARs, it would be possible to build the squad discussed earlier, where 1 or 2 have automatic weapons (the BARs) and everyone else either a semi-automatic or bolt-action (the 1903/1917/Garand), all using .30-06.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by The Dark

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

As for number of weapons per service member I do not know if they count the M203 as a separate weapon from the AR that it is attached to or not, but regardless some groups have many more weapons that others. For example my last years in I was EOD my three man team had one M4 each, two M203's, one M14, one M82, one M249, one M240, and officially one M9 for the team (but when we deployed we had one each). This gave our three man team between ten and twelve weapons for the team. There were nine teams just like mine in the company not counting the command/supply elements. Now yes we are still talking about lots of weapons but how many teams like this would it take to make up the numbers of weapons listed?

Originally Posted by The Dark

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

I have no idea about the ammo made and all that, but I do know that I have received in Iraq .50 Cal ammo with 1945 date stamp on it. I assume that it is a case of using the oldest first, but also know what happens when you assume. I would guess that old WWII ammo weapons (.45 ACP, .30-06, maybe even .30 carbine) would have surplus ammo, the newer rounds (5.56, and 7.62) would be more likely to run out early.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by CDAT

As for number of weapons per service member I do not know if they count the M203 as a separate weapon from the AR that it is attached to or not, but regardless some groups have many more weapons that others.

Sure. There's a big difference in loadout between a dozen SOF operators and a dozen radar technicians for a carrier (just using those as an example since they're probably close to each end of the spectrum).

For example my last years in I was EOD my three man team had one M4 each, two M203's, one M14, one M82, one M249, one M240, and officially one M9 for the team (but when we deployed we had one each). This gave our three man team between ten and twelve weapons for the team. There were nine teams just like mine in the company not counting the command/supply elements. Now yes we are still talking about lots of weapons but how many teams like this would it take to make up the numbers of weapons listed?

At four weapons per person, it's be a bit under 700,000 people. The proportion starts to skew back the other way once you take into account the USAF and USN; aircraft carriers and airfields have relatively low ratios.

I have no idea about the ammo made and all that, but I do know that I have received in Iraq .50 Cal ammo with 1945 date stamp on it. I assume that it is a case of using the oldest first, but also know what happens when you assume. I would guess that old WWII ammo weapons (.45 ACP, .30-06, maybe even .30 carbine) would have surplus ammo, the newer rounds (5.56, and 7.62) would be more likely to run out early.

I was poking around a bit to see what would be available on the civilian side, and one bulk seller listed how much revenue they received for each caliber. The largest was 9mm Para, followed by .223 Remi, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .22 LR, 5.56x45mm NATO, 12 ga, and 7.62x51mm NATO. I don't know what it looked like back in the 90s, though.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by The Dark

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

All those rounds are at a fraction of capacity, Lake city at full capacity would equal out to 4-5 times the U.S. civilian ammo makers. Also some specialty stuff was done elsewhere and only packed at L.C. Winchester did 9X19, L.C. only did one pistol round- the PGU-12/B High Velocity .38 SPL for the USAF. Winchester also did the .50BMG SLAP, but L.C. does the MK.211.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

All those rounds are at a fraction of capacity, Lake city at full capacity would equal out to 4-5 times the U.S. civilian ammo makers.

At full capacity, yes, but during the Twilight WarLake City wouldn't be able to reach full capacity. They'd have to take machines out of mothballs and hire and train new workers to expand production.

Before 9/11, total small arms ammunition consumption for the military was on the order of 350 million rounds per year. It went up to 1.1 billion rounds immediately after 9/11, which caused shortages because Lake City needed time to expand; as late as 2004 it produced 1 billion rounds per year. It took three years during a time when there weren't direct attacks to add 650 million rounds/year of capacity; this is probably close to the best performance that can be expected for a TW-era expansion.

At the point when they were producing 1.2 billion rounds per year in late 2005, they were using 70% of the floor space of the plant. It also required them to go from 650 employees at 350 million/year to 1,950 employees at 1.2 billion/year. Extrapolating out, they'd have a maximum capacity of around 1.7 billion/year, and would need around 2,600-2,700 employees to manage that production level. They'd also need no disruptions at their 1,800 suppliers (some of which had trouble with the real-world ramp-up). That rate of production would require three shifts per day, seven days per week, with minimal maintenance downtime on some very old machines.

Given the time frame of the Twilight War, you're looking at the pre-9/11 plant with a maximum output of 350 million rounds per year, with the next available equipment being machines mothballed since the Vietnam War, and with only 650 trained employees. Ramping up in wartime is going to be hard, particularly since there will be problems with primer supply. It requires 13 chemicals to make military primer, 10 of which are imported from Europe, China, Brazil, India, Canada, and Mexico.

To sum up, yes, Lake City has large capacity, but the logistics will be the problem. Particularly with the timing of the Twilight War, its workforce isn't large enough to expand production rapidly, much of its machinery is stored, and supply chain problems will cause a rapid decline in production capacity.