The Royal Army of Scotland

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

FWIW, in Indyref 1 in 2014 the SNP proposals for an Independent Scottish Armed Forces were based on Scotland getting the following 'share' of UK resources:

Total manpower of 20,000 (all services) - 15,000 Regular, 5,000 Reserve - which would have manned:
4 x Frigates
Unspecified number of smaller vessels
16 x Typhoons
Unspecified number of transport aircraft / helicopters
2 x Army Brigades (1 Regular, 1 Reserve)

It should be noted that these were the SNP proposals - effectively a 'wish list'. At no point did the UK Government ever confirm that we would actually get any of the above (I seem to recall various articles that speculated that it was highly unlikely we would get any Typhoons, the best we could hope for were Hawks). AFAIK there was no expectation that we'd get any Challengers - the heaviest armour we were expecting was Scorpions / Scimitars.

I also think manpower would have been a challenge, particularly as I think a lot of people looking for a long term military career would opt to serve in the British Armed Forces.

The proposed annual defence budget was 2.5 Billion Sterling, which would have equated to approx 1.7% of GDP. An independent Scotland would have sought NATO membership (like EU membership there was some debate as to whether we would have to apply as a new member or not).

Again, this is all IRL, so not relevant to T2K, but it looks as though Bryn's numbers weren't too far out.

Rainbow Six if you want an idea of how an independent Scottish military would be organised and armed you just need to look at the armed forces of the Republic of Ireland. Both countries are very similar in almost every way, even by racial and cultural comparison. Scotland has a slightly larger population than the ROI, but it would be a bit smaller than a United Ireland.

Republic of Ireland had an economy of US$ 227 billion and spent about 1 billion on defence in 2015. It had 9,100 active and 2,600 reserves in all forces.

The Army is organised into two brigades with some independent regiments, battalions and companies. No tanks (except 14 Scorpion), just over 100 APC and armed recce vehicles, 24 light artillery guns, infantry support weapons and some MANPADS and AA guns.

The Air Force has no combat capability whatsoever except for 7 PC-9 turboprops which can be armed with a gun or rocket pod. Transport and marine patrol handled by just 2 CN-235's. Other aircraft include 1 Gulfstream GIV (sold), 1 Learjet 45, 5 Cessna FR-172H and just 6 AW139 helicopters to support the whole Army

The Navy has 9 Fishery Patrol Vessels, and some are due to be retired. These could be classed as corvettes or maybe small frigates due to their dimensions, but they have no anti-aircraft or ASW missiles or weapons at all. Most potent weapon in Irish naval service is the 76mm cannon.

Add to this the Irish police force (unarmed in the main), two police helicopters and some SAR helicopters operated by a British based company to support the Irish Navy in coast guard duties and that is it.

I think an SNP dominated Scotland would be fielding a military very like this, as if you take the British big power mentality or its global policy or ego out of Scottish defence equation what do you have left? The SNP attitude or policy on defence is minimal. ie lightly armed self defence force, with police support and fishery protection capabilities. Nothing else.

Even if Scotland was to retain some frigates, Typhoons and Challengers tanks I doubt the SNP would want or could afford to keep them. Also the only thing that Scotland now manufactures for the British armed forces is ships, and the only thing that Scottish shipyards now really build are warships for the Royal Navy. New fishery patrol ships for a new Scottish Navy are not going to keep the Scottish shipbuilding industry afloat, although McTaggart Scott still makes components for British and American nuclear submarines. I don't know why the SNP threw in NATO membership for an independent Scotland, maybe it was an afterthought to appeal to British ex-servicemen and their families in Scotland.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

Rainbow Six if you want an idea of how an independent Scottish military would be organised and armed you just need to look at the armed forces of the Republic of Ireland. Both countries are very similar in almost every way, even by racial and cultural comparison. Scotland has a slightly larger population than the ROI, but it would be a bit smaller than a United Ireland.

Yeah, I agree that’s a pretty good comparison.

Originally Posted by RN7

Even if Scotland was to retain some frigates, Typhoons and Challengers tanks I doubt the SNP would want or could afford to keep them.

As I said upthread, afaik there was never any intent to retain any MBT’s. The heaviest armour the SNP were after were CVR(T)’s. The Typhoons were a slightly different matter. Remember what I posted upthread was the SNP ‘want’ list. I don’t think there was ever a realistic chance of us getting any Typhoons – or Tornados for that matter – but at I think least one Squadron of Hawks would have been a possibility, probably based at Leuchars. I’m aware that the Hawk is not a front line fighter aircraft but it would have allowed us to claim that our Air Force had some sort of air defence capability, however limited that might have been. In other words, we would have asked for Typhoons but settled for Hawks. If we’d started off asking for Hawks we’d have probably got Tucanos.

Originally Posted by RN7

I don't know why the SNP threw in NATO membership for an independent Scotland, maybe it was an afterthought to appeal to British ex-servicemen and their families in Scotland.

Same reason they wanted to keep the Queen as Head of State – to win votes. If we could have retained NATO membership relatively smoothly it might have also been used as ammunition when it came to making a case for also retaining EU Membership, but I’m speculating on that one.