How effective could a mostly legal project be.

[kato13]

Over the past weekend I had an interesting train of thought.

I was thinking about putting heavy lift blimp components in an abandoned mine in semi northern Canada (I wanted something really off the beaten path). That got me into thinking how Canadian laws might be different from US laws in terms of safety and construction of mines. That got me thinking as to what exact laws the project is breaking.

I came up with the following list
1. Illegal Weapons
2. Non permit construction
3. Faking Deaths.
4. Money Laundering?
5. Numerous EPA and SEC violations
6. Fraud

This got me to thinking what exactly could the project do legally? If they could pull together one to three thousand people without doing anything (serious prison) illegal could this process be duplicated over 10 regions giving the project something approaching critical mass to make a difference? This is more like a confederation of survivalist groups than the Project as we know it but I still find it interesting.

I often totally break down the project to something unrecognizable to canon, but I feel these mental exercises can produce interesting options that could maybe be rolled back into canon projects.

Just thought I would throw this out there to see if there are any thoughts or ideas.

[ArmySGT.]

Something like the Red Cross with a civil engineering capability. Playable for sure.

The Project could function with pistols, semi autos, and non lethal smoke or CS. Armored cars like the V-150 or the Peacekeeper are not illegal to own or operate. Even surplus M20 Greyhounds would be fine.

It is Hard Mode for game play as the baddies have captured DoD and Guard equipment in some cases.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Seems eminently sensible once you start thinking legally there's a whole range of possibilities open.

Want to build a multi level, nuke proof bunker in the middle of nowhere?

Then maybe you're just building a new doomsday seed vault.

Running a private air courier company? Then you can help yourself to all sorts of jets and copters.

The tricky bit would be buying in essential military gear just before the bomb dropped, stuff that the project couldn't do with it and couldn't justify legally.

[cosmicfish]

I think the cryotubes remain an unavoidable and illegal part of the Project. You can give them legal firearms and vehicles, you can do everything above board, but you still have either freely available cryotube technology or else a group that is performing illegal and unnecessary medical procedures on people. You also have the fact that the Project's open existence would drastically change the post-war environment, with other well-orgainzed groups competing to rule the country.

[mmartin798]

Actually, the cyrotube may have a loophole to exploit. The existing cyrogenic freezing companies use the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA) to gain custody of the "dead" patient that they freeze until medical science catches up. This donation effectively removes the ability of family members to "dispose" of the individual in some other way, allowing them to be given over to Erickson Cyrogenetics, a division of Huron United Health which is owned by Patterson Futura holdings, which in turn is owned by Morrow Medical Systems, a wholly owned subsidiary of Morrow Industries. Part of the paperwork of becoming a Project member would be executing the UAGA and then arranging a convincing death (suicide) using little tested for or untraceable cocktail of drugs that can be easily counteracted when put into the cryotube.

[cosmicfish]

I don't see that holding up. We're talking tens of thousands of healthy people, all with a Morrow connection (you probably cannot hide that all were recruited and trained), all committing "suicide" so they can be frozen. That wont stand up to legal scrutiny, and it adds the complication of needing to hide that you can cure them without freezing them... because if you can't cure them going in, they're dead coming out!

[ArmySGT.]

In tragic news the "Empress Terra Nova" on a ten day cruise suffered engine failure in rough seas previously forecasted as light to moderate. Radio transmissions by the captain to port authorities in Bermuda and San Juan, Puerto Rico speak of a fifteen degree list and waves over the bows. The Empress Terra Nova was chartered by multinational conglomerate Morrow Industries as a corporate retreat and farewell tour for faithful employees. The fate is unknown at this time, but spokesmen for Morrow Industries state there is 753 of their own employees aboard.

Keep watching here for more breaking news on this developing situation!

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I don't see that holding up. We're talking tens of thousands of healthy people, all with a Morrow connection (you probably cannot hide that all were recruited and trained), all committing "suicide" so they can be frozen. That wont stand up to legal scrutiny, and it adds the complication of needing to hide that you can cure them without freezing them... because if you can't cure them going in, they're dead coming out!

Not saying it looked like a suicide. Imagine getting a time released, subcutaneous implant that produced a number of symptoms that culminated in the persons apparent death from disease or aliment. This works really well if your doctor telling the friends and families about the persons condition is an undercover MP doctor. People die every day. Messing with some research study on the number of deaths from mesothelioma or other condition is not a concern. If the family gets a different doctor, the symptoms are reversed and is it a miraculous recovery. To celebrate, the MP candidate decides to book a cruise on the Empress Terra Nova for a nice vacation.

[ArmySGT.]

Morrow Industries also in the news today with Singapore, and island nation in south east asia, announcing a update and upgrade for police and paramilitary forces. A multi corporation cooperative deal, Cummins will provide the powerpack around one of their signature diesels. GM is providing the wheels, suspension components, and their adaptive central tire inflation system. The CTS gives the operator the ability to adjust tire pressure for less for soft sand and snow or for high pressure to operate on streets and highways. Radios and other electronics come from such suppliers as GE, BAE, IMI, Raytheon giving an integrated suite with communications operating on civil bands and into military channels up to Brigade level command and control. Bring this all together and matching with a hull provided by Cadillac Gage, the aforementioned Morrow Industries will complete the final installations, quality control, select destructive testing (shock, blast, and EMP for starters) prior to delivery. This is the third such time that Morrow Industries has been the overall product lead in this type of multi corporation collaboration. Spokesman for the State department and the Department of Defense have verified separately in statements their willingness to go ahead with this sale.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Making a few thousand people isn't such a big deal.

With the way the project works needing volunteers willing to abandon all their friends and families to be frozen underground. Describes a group of people with few connections to the world.

As it is anything from industrial accidents, the above mentioned sunken cruise ships would provide adequate cover.

[kato13]

One of the things that I expect a "legal" project to do is have its people claim they are simply going off grid. In and of itself that is not illegal. They could join a antitechnology compound in rural Idaho or become denizens of the Alaskan outback. If they provide someone with power of attorney to handle any legal matters that befall them that could throw the trail off for most small things.

This is where size gets restricted even further than the normal project. Distant relatives could start claiming that people are being held in a cult. Post Jonestown there could be all sorts of investigations that pop up.

There is also the potential for suspicion when a couple of thousand people don't start registering for social security yet are still though to be alive.

Red flags such as those above are why the canon project seems like it must commit fraud (falsifying deaths) in order to reach a substantial size.

[kato13]

I was thinking a little more about "Legal" project weapons.

Through the use of advanced tech would it be possible to simply be so far ahead of the law that nothing has been banned yet.

If the project uses Gauss weapons, lasers and particle beams could those be pre significant regulations?

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by kato13

I was thinking a little more about "Legal" project weapons.

Through the use of advanced tech would it be possible to simply be so far ahead of the law that nothing has been banned yet.

If the project uses Gauss weapons, lasers and particle beams could those be pre significant regulations?

It would depend a lot on the circumstances and timing. Any significant new weapon technology, publicly acknowledged, would only be legal for as long as it took for regulations and/or legislation to be drawn up. Railguns and coilguns are currently legal mostly because no one is making any practical weapons outside the military - if Smith and Wesson rolled out a handheld (or even vehicular) railgun, it would be illegal for private ownership within months at the outside.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

I was thinking a little more about "Legal" project weapons.

Through the use of advanced tech would it be possible to simply be so far ahead of the law that nothing has been banned yet.

If the project uses Gauss weapons, lasers and particle beams could those be pre significant regulations?

Cool. The Project has always been about high tech bleeding edge advancements. Procurement and funding by some dreamers, theoreticians, and imaginative planners (adds creativity to the game) that put away equipment don't always work best in the real world as we have seen in the modules. That is me looking at you, Lonestar.

Gyrojets pistols, carbines, and rifles. HAAM suits with tasers (air taser). Various riot gases like the vomit gas. The painful sound (long range acoustic device) generator to drive off hostiles. The goop cannons the stick rioters feet to the ground with fast drying foam. Thunder flash strips on vehicles that have a flash bang stun effect. Stingball riot grenades to painfully drive off rioters. Etc.

[bobcat]

well for legal weapons, private companies in most countries can legally possess most if not all forms of non-nuclear weapons. leaver the weapons stored in a secured warehouse on the books until you have to "move them to a more secure location" when things heat up. most arms manufacturers routinely keep such stockpiles even of obsolete weapons for R&D, filling emergency orders, or even just for employees to take them out to the company range for some down time. it not just arms manufacturers either. there are even IT firms that experiment with various types of explosives for secure emergency data disruption.

the biggest problem with doing things legal while still maintaining operational security is going to be freezing the teams. sure they are all volunteers but there really wouldn't be a good way to explain that.

[kalos72]

My idea doesnt involve all the super tech really, except maybe a few enhanced/miniaturized SLOWPOKE 5 improved nuke reactors ad alot of new functional gear, but it is driven/paid for from the DoD using a PMC as the vendor.

I just cannot see people really though our only course of action against a muchealr exchange was evacuating millions of people and just pray.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

I was thinking a little more about "Legal" project weapons.

Through the use of advanced tech would it be possible to simply be so far ahead of the law that nothing has been banned yet.

If the project uses Gauss weapons, lasers and particle beams could those be pre significant regulations?

annnnnnnd the E- factor for a 1 cm rail gun turret mounted on a V-150?

OMG!

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by kato13

I was thinking a little more about "Legal" project weapons.

Through the use of advanced tech would it be possible to simply be so far ahead of the law that nothing has been banned yet.

If the project uses Gauss weapons, lasers and particle beams could those be pre significant regulations?

Well, it is legal to own automatic weapons in the U.S., having Morrow Defends Technologies as a subsidiary of Morrow Industries, with the tasking of R&D into improving existing models and developing new technologies will certainly get DoD and DoJ approval for explosives, missiles, mortars, etc. So it's really not that difficult to get military-grade weapons for the Project.

You can even have Morrow Defence Technologies working with DARPA for the really cool stuff...

[cosmicfish]

So there are several different options here:

Case 1: Secret and straight-up illegal. The Project has a bunch of stuff that is illegal and hides it. There are multiple challenges, but the core issue is that if any of it were revealed, the whole Project would likely be shut down.

Case 2: Secret and not-yet illegal. The Project has a bunch of stuff that is legal only because the government doesn't know anyone is doing it. This is the idea that they could use railguns and freeze tubes and not be violating any laws, but the reason I specified secret is because as soon as these technologies were revealed to be viable they would be regulated as quickly as possible. If Smith and Wesson rolled out a man-portable, lethal railgun tomorrow, the next day would see legislation before Congress to have them regulated by the ATF. So this is basically still Case 1, but everyone gets to sleep easier knowing that they are not technically breaking the law and that if uncovered the Project would be doomed but no one would likely go to jail.

Case 3: Not secret and probably illegal. This is the DARPA case, where the technology is developed legally because it has government sanction, but where the Project appropriates it for its own use. I say "probably" because it is possible that the actual appropriate would wait until the government was defunct and "legal" meaningless, but that is a convoluted case - essentially the Project becomes a group that just sits around waiting for the government to fall, and that is not a group DARPA or the rest of the DoD wants to contract with.

Case 4: Secret and not illegal. Not sure how to do this. No freeze tubes, nothing more than basic weapons, etc. Severely limiting.