YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

My issue here - which others have already mentioned - is the way that one person's opinions are being presented as facts.

This. Very much this.

Let's face it, guys. Like it or not, we're a small community. Schisms are particularly damaging. A lot of people who used to be fixtures here now show up here seldom or never. Have they just lost interest or have they been repulsed by the tone of some of the discussion here? It's hard to say, but I suspect a good proportion of our "lost" members fall into the latter category.

One person's T2KU need not be everyone's. Hubris is a big turn-off. Slagging someone else's work (canon or not) because you see things differently is not cool.

From our very own forum guidelines.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Keep It Civil

We can all agree to disagree but let's make sure to do so respectfully. No name-calling, sarcasm, or other childishness is appropriate or welcome here. If you are upset with someone and want them to know about it, send them a PM and try to work it out privately. If another member is really getting on your nerves, you can use the forum tools to place that person on your ignore list. We don't tolerate flame wars here.

Please don't attempt to incite internecine forum conflict with deliberately provocative and/or inflammatory posts. In interweb parlance, please don't be a troll.

Keep It Constructive

Folks post a lot of original T2K material here, most of it of the highest quality. Many contributors invite and welcome constructive criticism. If, however, they do not solicit feedback, then it's poor form to pipe in give it anyway. And please, don't post just to tear down the hard work of others. If you really don't like something that someone else has posted, and can't express this respectfully and with the intention of creating a constructive dialogue with the poster, then you should probably just keep it to yourself.

Thanks, and enjoy!

[Olefin]

Heard what you said Raellus and noted

as for those who arent posting here anymore - sorry but please dont make it sound like that is my responsibility - frankly if anyone loves and encourages discussion its me - as long as it discussion - however posts like this I dont see as as meeting the decorum of the board either

"Whoa whoa whoa... so let me get this right. Someone complains about the lack of proper research done by the original authors and then uses poor research himself to "correct" somebody's inventory for Mexico?"

That sort of violates both the Keep it Civil and Keep it Constructive precepts of the board.

and FYI the AMX-VCI that I was saying was in the Mexican Army inventory that I was getting hammered for - its also in the Mexican Sourcebook as them having it as well - i.e. I was agreeing there with what was in the Sourcebook as being accurate for what they actually had for the canon invasion

I love this board and the freedom of discussion it has - and if anyone really doesnt want it to descend into "in your face" facebook style comments its me - and if I made those then I apologize big time

[RN7]

Canon is what was published by GDW. Everything else is alternative fan fiction no matter how much you like or dislike canon or fan created alternative versions of Twilight 2000.

There are five main issues with the Mexican invasion of the American southwest.

1) Real world Mexican forces in the 1990's are not well armed enough to be capable of successfully invading and holding American territory, or defeating U.S. forces in the southwest even in the aftermath of a nuclear attack. I think everyone agrees with this.

2) The GDW sourcebooks do have large amount of information about the invasion, battles and conditions in the American southwest. However the sourcebooks do not give enough information about the combatants, particularly the Mexicans, to make it believable.

Red Star-Lone Star sourcebook has a Mexican orbat on page 12-13, but it's too vague in regards to the type of vehicles they are operating. There is a more information on pages 29-44 about the Soviets and the marauder groups in Texas.

City of Angels sourcebook goes into more detail on page 9 about Mexican forces in Los Angeles. There is more information on page 33-36 and on page 43. The Mexicans are exclusively armed with Soviet arms which has caused some debate about why the Mexicans are using Soviet equipment when they didn't in real life.

Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbook (2nd edition is better) gives an orbat for Soviet Division Cuba. There is also some related information in the Satellite Down sourcebook

3) GDW gives more detail about U.S. forces in the southwest. American Combat Vehicle Handbook (US Army Vehicle Guide for 1st edition) are particularly useful for the southwest. But obviously there is not enough information. There is information about U.S. tanks and light tanks, and the pages on organisation and composition do list other vehicles such as IFV's, APC's, artillery, AD systems and light armed vehicles. But this does not show up in the unit history and current status, with maybe the exception of the Cadet Brigade and some unit descriptions for U.S. forces in other theatres in V2.

4) GDW wrote Twilight 2000 in the 1980's from the source material they had available. They did a very good job, but without access to the internet they obviously missed a lot of information. It's enjoyable to fill the gaps.

5) The Twilight War is the Cold War turned into a hot war and then into a nuclear war. To fill in the gaps it's best to keep Twilight 2000 to Cold War history and developments as closely as reasonably possible.


The main fan fiction alternative versions of the Twilight War related to the Mexican invasion of the American southwest are...

Mexican Army 1998-2000 by Frank Chadwick in Challenge Magazine
Mexican Army Sourcebook by Paul Mulcahy
California Dreaming by Orrin J. Ladd
South America Order of Battle posted on Chris Callaghan's Twilight 2000 page by unknown
US Order of Battle for 2003 by Steve Charlton

I don't have the Mexican Army 1998-2000 from Challenge Magazine. If anyone has it could they post it up.

[Olefin]

I have it -and there arent any tanks - ERC90 armored cars and VAB APC just like Lone Star Red Star

Before the war, the Mexican Army consisted
of 100,000 active troops and 60,000
reservists. Active forces comprised a
Presidential Guard Brigade, two
mechanized brigades, three armored
cavalry regiments and 36 regional
brigades.

The Presidential Guard Brigade
consisted of three infantry regiments.
Each mechanized brigade consisted of
two mechanized infantry regiments, one
armored recon regiment, and one selfpropelled
artillery grupo (battalion). The
armored cavalry regiments were
battalion-sized groups of armored cars
and infantry carried in wheeled armored
personnel carriers.

The 36 regional
brigades varied in strength, but their
average strength was one motorized
cavalry regiment, two infantry regiments,
and one battery of artillery. The
mechanized brigades and armored
cavalry regiments were numbered. (All
regiments were organized as a single battalion.)
The artillery for the regional
brigades were provided by detached batteries
of three numbered artillery
regiments.

Regional brigades themselves
were designated by the city or town that
constituted their peacetime station, and
their component regiments also carried
a variation of that as a designation. (For
example, the Monclova Brigade consisted
of the Monclova Cavalry, the 1st
and 2nd Monclova Infantry, and the 6th
Battery of the 2nd Artillery.)
Reservists were intended to bring
prewar units up to full strength and to
provide replacements. In actuality, they
were used to form additional infantry
regiments.

These regiments were referred
to as Activo regiments and
generally carried the designation of the
city or state from which they were
recruited. In many cases, these were
recruited from the same cities as the
peacetime stations of regional brigades,
in which case they assumed the next
available number for infantry regiments
from that region. For example, Brigada
Mexicali had two infantry regiments
before the war. An additional regiment
of reservists was raised from Mexicali
and designated the 30 Regimento Infanteria
Activo Mexicali. One additional
light artillery battalion of three batteries
was formed from reservists as well.

EQUIPMENT
Artillery: Each mechanized brigade had
6 MI09 SP 155mm howitzers and 12 MI08
105mm SP howitzers. All artillery batteries
in the regional brigades were
equipped with 105mm howitzers.
Mobilized reservists manned three batteries
of antique 75mm pack howitzers
that had seen duty with the 4th Army in
southeastern Texas.

Armored Vehicles: Armored cavalry
regiments and armored recon battalions
included a squadron of seventeen
ERC-90 armored cars and two squadrons
of infantry in VAB armored personnel
carriers (both of French manufacture).

Some motorized cavalry regiments included
a mixed squadron of VABs and
ERC90s (trucks and jeeps carried the
other squadrons of the regiment).
Mechanized infantry regimeqts included
forty VAB APCs.

Support Weapons: Each regiment included
eighteen 60mm mortars (6 per
company) and six jeep-mounted TOW
systems. However, many regiments of
regional brigades had not received TOW
by the outbreak of hostilities. A variety
of obsolete light antitank systems were
also in use, the most common being the
2.75" M9 Bazooka of World War I1 vintage.

A small quantity of modern light
AAA guns were also received prior to the
war, and 8 such guns were attached to
each of the three regular brigades. In the
Presidential Guard these were twin
30mm guns, while in the l a and 2a
brigades these were twin 20mm guns. In
all cases the guns were towed.

You want the rest - I have it - details the invasion forces and where they went and gives ORBAT - and again no tanks

And RN - frankly you can keep your opinions of whether or not I like fan canon or canon to yourself.

As for your post - you are the one calling canon into question - not me.

I could go thru your post and argue the details with you - but frankly its not worth the effort to do so.

I have better things to do with my time and my talents than waste it on this subject.

I was planning on writing at least one if not several modules on that area - but now not sure frankly that its worth one more minute of my time.

Have a good evening.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I And RN - frankly you can keep your opinions of whether or not I like fan canon or canon to yourself.

As for your post - you are the one calling canon into question - not me.

I could go thru your post and argue the details with you - but frankly its not worth the effort to do so.

I have better things to do with my time and my talents than waste it on this subject.

I was planning on writing at least one if not several modules on that area - but now not sure frankly that its worth one more minute of my time.

Have a good evening.

Olefin I wasn't directing any criticism at you whatsoever, if I was I would have named or quoted you. I was trying to make the issues on this thread clearer to stop further bickering, and I wasn't criticising anyone.

I stated that "Canon is what was published by GDW. Everything else is alternative fan fiction no matter how much you like or dislike canon or fan created alternative versions of Twilight 2000" because that is what it is. It wasn't a jibe directed at you. If you dislike canon go and post an alternative version like I asked you in an earlier post.

I like debating canon not trying to change it, and if I didn't like debating it I wouldn't respond to your posts. In fact if you have read what I have said on many earlier posts on this thread you will find that I am in agreement with you on a number of things.

I think you probably took more than your fair share of criticism today on this topic, but then you do like to argue things don't you?

[Olefin]

"I think you probably took more than your fair share of criticism today on this topic, but then you do like to argue things don't you?"

No actually I like to discuss things - but looks like discussion is the last thing this board wants.

And yes canon is what GDW publishes - which includes what I have had published as canon recently - and what I hope to get more of published one day if I can muster the interest to do so anymore.

And if you guys had actually read what I posted you would have seen that the canon I have the issue with is not the 2000 canon - its the 2300AD one.

And RN7 - there is more than enough material in the canon to show why the Mexican invasion succeeded. But you miss the point of what I was saying about the alternate fan canon

You dont need a huge increase in the Mexican Army to succeed in the invasion that occurred in 1998. They could have done it with what they had already - which includes either the real life AMX-VCI or the canon VAB

But what I am saying is that the chances of them holding it for any length of time especially with what is going on in Red Star Lone Star and HW and bringing to life the 300 year Mexican occupation of the American Southwest and southern California is completely unrealistic - meaning I agree with you totally

and if the board was one that actually encouraged discussion and not "my fair share of criticism" I might feel free to go on with this thread and others - but right now that is not the environment on this board.

[mpipes]

Olefin,

Hope you continue contributing. Really want to see new material.

I've always seen Olefin's comments as very constructive and passionate. Never out and out arrogant. And I have always seen the comments as a valuable contribution to the fan base.

As for all the back biting, cattiness, and plain arrogance as to the sacredness of canon that many seem to have....we all need to KNOCK IT OFF!!

Take all the comments tweaking things for what it is....a person's views of their version.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by mpipes

Olefin,

Hope you continue contributing. Really want to see new material.

I've always seen Olefin's comments as very constructive and passionate. Never out and out arrogant. And I have always seen the comments as a valuable contribution to the fan base.

As for all the back biting, cattiness, and plain arrogance as to the sacredness of canon that many seem to have....we all need to KNOCK IT OFF!!

Take all the comments tweaking things for what it is....a person's views of their version.

Thank you very much for saying that. I definitely appreciate hearing that.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

Canon is what was published by GDW. Everything else is alternative fan fiction no matter how much you like or dislike canon or fan created alternative versions of Twilight 2000.

There are five main issues with the Mexican invasion of the American southwest.

1) Real world Mexican forces in the 1990's are not well armed enough to be capable of successfully invading and holding American territory, or defeating U.S. forces in the southwest even in the aftermath of a nuclear attack. I think everyone agrees with this.

2) The GDW sourcebooks do have large amount of information about the invasion, battles and conditions in the American southwest. However the sourcebooks do not give enough information about the combatants, particularly the Mexicans, to make it believable.

Red Star-Lone Star sourcebook has a Mexican orbat on page 12-13, but it's too vague in regards to the type of vehicles they are operating. There is a more information on pages 29-44 about the Soviets and the marauder groups in Texas.

City of Angels sourcebook goes into more detail on page 9 about Mexican forces in Los Angeles. There is more information on page 33-36 and on page 43. The Mexicans are exclusively armed with Soviet arms which has caused some debate about why the Mexicans are using Soviet equipment when they didn't in real life.

Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbook (2nd edition is better) gives an orbat for Soviet Division Cuba. There is also some related information in the Satellite Down sourcebook

3) GDW gives more detail about U.S. forces in the southwest. American Combat Vehicle Handbook (US Army Vehicle Guide for 1st edition) are particularly useful for the southwest. But obviously there is not enough information. There is information about U.S. tanks and light tanks, and the pages on organisation and composition do list other vehicles such as IFV's, APC's, artillery, AD systems and light armed vehicles. But this does not show up in the unit history and current status, with maybe the exception of the Cadet Brigade and some unit descriptions for U.S. forces in other theatres in V2.

4) GDW wrote Twilight 2000 in the 1980's from the source material they had available. They did a very good job, but without access to the internet they obviously missed a lot of information. It's enjoyable to fill the gaps.

5) The Twilight War is the Cold War turned into a hot war and then into a nuclear war. To fill in the gaps it's best to keep Twilight 2000 to Cold War history and developments as closely as reasonably possible.


The main fan fiction alternative versions of the Twilight War related to the Mexican invasion of the American southwest are...

Mexican Army 1998-2000 by Frank Chadwick in Challenge Magazine
Mexican Army Sourcebook by Paul Mulcahy
California Dreaming by Orrin J. Ladd
South America Order of Battle posted on Chris Callaghan's Twilight 2000 page by unknown
US Order of Battle for 2003 by Steve Charlton

I don't have the Mexican Army 1998-2000 from Challenge Magazine. If anyone has it could they post it up.

FYI - if there ever was a post that basically complained about the canon or presented personal opinions as fact I think this one would qualify for that designation for sure.