The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As The Dark mentioned, the RfP requires the ability to retain the cases (i.e. non-ejection of the cases) but having the ability for rapid follow-up shots. A revolver is the simplest way to achieve that and also without having to remove your trigger hand from the weapon (e.g. bolt-action).
So rather than thinking of the weapon as a strange or long, tech path, it's actually an easier tech path given the requirements (aside from the special ammo it used).

The Nagant M1895 revolver is one of the few that an armorer might be able to mount a silencer on. With a revolver, you don't have failure to feed problems, the powder charge has no direct action on the loading cycle.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

With a revolver, you don't have failure to feed problems, the powder charge has no direct action on the loading cycle.

And this is probably a more important feature than any of the things that I have mentioned (I wish I had thought of it haha!).
When this situation occurs, you can cycle the next round faster (and without taking your hands from their positions on the weapon) with a revolver rifle than you can with a semi-auto or even bolt-action rifle - and there's less chance of shifting the point of aim when you do so.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The key word here is almost, most are too troublesome to bother with due to the lack of gas sealing but there are some designs that are more suited to the task.
The Nagant M1895 revolver used gas sealing as part of its normal operation. This allowed it to be suppressed at around the same noise level as any supressed semi-auto pistol.

There was also a suppressed S&W 625 made for a German police unit that used a clamshell covering over the cylinder to contain the gap gases. The PSDR 3 used a subsonic .45 ACP round and a large suppressor to get the sound down to 90 dB.

The point being, that supressing a revolver can be done. And with the idea being to produce a rapid, single shot, supressed weapon that retains the cases, putting a metal cage over the ejection port of a semi-auto would likely cause a distinctive noise as the shell hit the cage. There's also the problem of just how big do you make the cage to allow it to effectively capture all the cases without filling up to the point of jamming the action and how unwieldy does that make the weapon?

Yeah, a cage/bag over the ejection port was one of the other ideas I had thought of, but it tends to be unwieldy (as you shoot, you get more weight hanging off one side of the gun), it's not truly silent (even with a canvas bag, you'll have brass hitting brass), and if you have any problem with ejection, it's much slower and harder to clear.

Another idea was a forward-ejecting system (similar to Kel-Tec's RFB) with a manually locked tube, but that would be severely limited in capacity, and if it wasn't cleared, it could do nasty things to the rifle's innards.

[ArmySGT.]

Have you considered just using the sub sonic piston type ammunition with a silenced revolver? Not that it may need a can with piston ammo.

[ArmySGT.]

Lever action rifles are also very good for silencing. .44 special out of .44 mag slowed to under 1150 fps is a option as you are able to keep large grain (mass) bullets to retain stopping power.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

And this is probably a more important feature than any of the things that I have mentioned (I wish I had thought of it haha!).
When this situation occurs, you can cycle the next round faster (and without taking your hands from their positions on the weapon) with a revolver rifle than you can with a semi-auto or even bolt-action rifle - and there's less chance of shifting the point of aim when you do so.

The Nagant is designed to cam the cylinder forward to mate with the barrel to retain all the pressure from the powder charge. The idea was that the poor quality control of the Czar's arsenals gun powder would be overcome this way. There isn't any cylinder blow by.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Yeah, a cage/bag over the ejection port was one of the other ideas I had thought of, but it tends to be unwieldy (as you shoot, you get more weight hanging off one side of the gun), it's not truly silent (even with a canvas bag, you'll have brass hitting brass), and if you have any problem with ejection, it's much slower and harder to clear.

I doubt the brass hitting brass is much louder than the revolver's hammer hitting the base of the firing pin. In a rifle configuration with a bipod, a cage with fired casings is unlikely to unbalance the weapon. After all, many successful SMGs had side-mounted magazines that were more unweildy.

[Draq]

For those of you wanting I little more intimate relationship with the stoner 63 https://youtu.be/ZSFbXT6ZPjc hopefully this means more stoner videos.

[ArmySGT.]

[Draq]

Ooh perfect. Another wonderful turret/body hybrid. I always thought this type of thing would be rather common.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Draq

For those of you wanting I little more intimate relationship with the stoner 63 https://youtu.be/ZSFbXT6ZPjc hopefully this means more stoner videos.

It was nice that even with only parts for the automatic rifle present, Ian was able to give viewers some idea as to how the other weapons were assembled using the receiver.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Draq

Ooh perfect. Another wonderful turret/body hybrid. I always thought this type of thing would be rather common.

I agree. I think that by 1999-2002, turrets and chassis would be mixed and matched, depending upon the support available, compatibility, and what was available and working.

[Draq]

Originally Posted by copeab

It was nice that even with only parts for the automatic rifle present, Ian was able to give viewers some idea as to how the other weapons were assembled using the receiver.

Indeed. And he alludes to future videos, I'm so excited.

[shrike6]

Interesting concept, a Hum-vee howitzer
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...-capabilities/

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Draq

For those of you wanting I little more intimate relationship with the stoner 63 https://youtu.be/ZSFbXT6ZPjc hopefully this means more stoner videos.

as long as the videos are about the vehicle and not the stoners I knew in college

[Draq]

https://youtu.be/aKj9FuF5-xQ
So apparently there's a shop where I used to live that makes semi auto conversions and semi auto reproductions of ww2 machine guns. and apparently he took the rp-46/dpm conversion and made it better.

[copeab]

Forgotten Weapons covered the Steyr ACR today:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/stey...-from-the-90s/

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by shrike6

Interesting concept, a Hum-vee howitzer
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...-capabilities/

There is REAL promise in the system. To reduce recoil, that 105mm operates under the concept of "constant recoil." The barrel is pushed forward just before firing so that it has farther to travel before it hits the recoil stop (and thus transmitting the recoil to the carriage). The barrel then arrests just short of maximum travel so it never contacts the stop. This lightens the "felt recoil" of the weapon. The reduction can be quite significant. The same system is used in the newest version of the AA12 Assault Shotgun as well.

[Raellus]

This totally looks like something from the G.I. Joe toy line of the mid-1980s, and would make an interesting, if unconventional PC vehicle for T2K. I'm kind of surprised it didn't make the cut for the v1-2.2 U.S. Army Vehicle Guides.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...out-of-g-i-joe

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Somewhere I've got a folder with pictures of the 8x8 VADS system in...over at the AFV forums there was some discussion on it. The vehicle itself was abandoned (as in, dropped and no longer considered for procurement) and the lone example is sitting in someone's yard (minus the gun and supporting turret).

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This totally looks like something from the G.I. Joe toy line of the mid-1980s, and would make an interesting, if unconventional PC vehicle for T2K. I'm kind of surprised it didn't make the cut for the v1-2.2 U.S. Army Vehicle Guides.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...out-of-g-i-joe

You need to read more posted about that a few months back
http://forum.juhlin.com/attachment.p...0&d=1515873888
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...6882#post76882

[cawest]

the Chimera

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...fchimera-1984/

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One vehicle that I don't think we've mentioned before is the Bobcat APC.
This was a 1950s Canadian design that, had the concept been pursued, might have seen the Canadians getting the leap on the UK and the US in APC design (and sales).

When I first learnt about it, none of the following sites even mentioned the Bobcat let alone had any information about it. I read about it in an obscure book on armoured vehicles (by a German author, translated into English).

Anyway, the Bobcat: -
https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...ada/bobcat.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobcat...sonnel_carrier)
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mode...-apc-t531.html
https://www.snafu-solomon.com/2013/0...adian-apc.html

[Vespers War]

Time to raise this thread from the dead for a weapon I learned about while doing WW1 research. Patented in 1901, the Thorneycroft was a bolt-action bullpup rifle, with the bolt retracting along the butt of the rifle and five rounds of rimmed .303 British being fed by a charger into a magazine that sloped into the semi-pistol grip, eliminating the chance for rimlock by having the rounds horizontally held on an inclined plane, meaning the rims were not overlapping. While shorter and lighter than the Lee-Enfield, it was rejected for poor ergonomics and excessive recoil, as well as concerns about accuracy.

v2 stats for Rifle of 1906:
Weight: 3.36 kg
Ammo: 5
ROF: BA
Damage: 4
Pen: 2-3-Nil
Bulk: 7
Recoil: 5
Range: 95 (would round to 100 per rules, I always provide raw numbers for people who don't follow the rounding rule)
Reload: 1

By my calculations, the SMLE is recoil 4 and range 104, so the complaints of the evaluation board match up with the game stats.

[copeab]

Ian did a video on the Thorneycroft last year

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/tho...volley-sights/

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by copeab

Ian did a video on the Thorneycroft last year

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/tho...volley-sights/

Yes, that video is in the article Vespers War linked to.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

One vehicle that I don't think we've mentioned before is the Bobcat APC.

Well actually, you mentioned it in pretty much your first post in this thread.
I think somebody likes the bobcat...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well actually, you mentioned it in pretty much your first post in this thread.
I think somebody likes the bobcat...

Did I?
Sheesh, I really have to get into the habit of re-reading the threads before I post a reply, as in 'read the entire thread' (or at least do a search).

Mine was the second post on this thread and I even included a pic. of the little beast!
And yes, I do like it a bit. I think the Canadians could have captured a large part of the market that the US M75, M59 and M113 vehicles dominated (although to be fair, the only other user besides the US for the M75 was Belgium so that partcular part of the market was never big).

[Vespers War]

Another one that I know Ian has done videos on in the past is the Volcanic pistol and carbine. In particular, the ones I have information for are the later ones produced by the New Haven Arms Company (the post-S&W one with B. Tyler Henry running the factory for Oliver Winchester). The firearms produced came in seven models, a pair of pistols firing Rocket Ball #1 (.31 caliber), and a pair of pistols and three carbines firing Rocket Ball #2 (.41 caliber).

The Rocket Ball was an early self-contained caseless cartridge, using a Burton ball with the cavity at the base filled with gunpowder and a percussion cap, sealed with a brass disc to keep out moisture. They were notably anemic due to the lack of space for powder. I don't have good information on the powder charges for these guns, but I calculated them at 4.5 grains of black powder for #1 and 8 grains for #2. I do have the prices for each of these late-1850s firearms and the ammunition. Weights are calculated per Fire, Fusion & Steel since technical data are somewhat hard to come by.

Pocket Pistol - Rocket Ball #1 (.31") - 0.64kg loaded weight, Ammo 6i. Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, Recoil 2, Lever-Action, Range 7. $12.00

Target Pistol - Rocket Ball #1 (.31") - 0.80 kg loaded weight, Ammo 10i. Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, Recoil 2, Lever-Action, Range 8. $13.50

Short Navy Pistol - Rocket Ball #2 (.41") - 0.91 kg loaded weight, Ammo 8i. Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, Recoil 2, Lever-Action, Range 11. $18.00

Navy Pistol - Rocket Ball #2 (.41") - 1.07 kg loaded weight, Ammo 10i. Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, Recoil 2, Lever-Action, Range 11. $18.00

Carbine (16" barrel) - Rocket Ball #2 (.41") - 3.01 kg loaded weight, Ammo 20i. Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 5, Recoil 1, Lever-Action, Range 35. $30.00

Carbine (20" barrel) - Rocket Ball #2 (.41") - 3.33 kg loaded weight, Ammo 25i. Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 6, Recoil 1, Lever-Action, Range 35. $35.00

Carbine (24" barrel) - Rocket Ball #2 (.41") - 3.66 kg loaded weight, Ammo 30i. Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 7, Recoil 1, Lever-Action, Range 35. $40.00

Rocket Ball #1 - $10 per 1,000 rounds, 130 rounds per pound.
Rocket Ball #2 - $12 per 1,000 rounds, 66 rounds per pound.


Edit: on further thought, I'm not sure this is the best of anything, but it's a fascinating predecessor to the Henry and Winchester rifles.

[Draq]

https://youtu.be/vCNw9Z2Q3T0 ok folks the whole damn thing. The entire stoner system