The 40th Infantry Division

[Olefin]

Actually working on a California module right now and have been looking at the 40th and what they may have by April of 2001 - and also what they might have by June of 2001 by using a resource that the game designers didnt know would be there - i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

and I dont agree with a complete collapse of civilization - there will be pockets that would still be in good shape in 2001 - especially if you have working power generation capability and areas that have oil still available - and the area where the 40th is has both - especially oil - i.e. the Bakersfield oil fields were not nuked and the refinery most likely stayed in US hands - and as the canon said where there is still oil and still power there is civilization - and given the amount of nuclear technicians in the USN and elsewhere in the area the Diablo Canyon power plant is a major possibility for power

So take power + oil + water (its the one place in CA where water even in a drought situation is probably still plentiful) and you have a very good possibility that civilization,while taking it on the chin, is not in collapse mode - versus LA to the south that had multiple nuke hits as well as an almost total lack of water and power generation and oil

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

The machine shop is no more or less equipped than any shop built to service heavy industrial earth moving equipment. The proximity of the shop to San Francisco and the pasting the Navy fleet yards have taken from nuclear weapons makes doubtful the personnel from there are alive or there is power to operate anything.

It is murder to send people out to fight in the year 2000 with a tank that was rendered obsolete in 1944 by the weapons of that time.

Murder.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

The machine shop is no more or less equipped than any shop built to service heavy industrial earth moving equipment. The proximity of the shop to San Francisco and the pasting the Navy fleet yards have taken from nuclear weapons makes doubtful the personnel from there are alive or there is power to operate anything.

It is murder to send people out to fight in the year 2000 with a tank that was rendered obsolete in 1944 by the weapons of that time.

Murder.

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them - and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap


as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

[Olefin]

and where do you get a million gallons of diesel in 1998- lots of places if you are the US Army - the fuel shortage per the canon as far as the Army running out of fuel didnt hit until later in the year after the Mexicans invasion disrupted supplies coming out of Texas - now moving that division in 2001 would mean having oil from Bakersfield - and luckily for the US they still have both the oil field and the refinery

[Matt Wiser]

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

Lovely stuff. Where is it, exactly?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

Olefin mentioned the Littlefield collection earlier. It's a post from yesterday and as Olefin said, the collection held items from the WW1 up to the 1980s but, when considering the T2k world, also included some 1990s vehicles. And it wasn't just armoured vehicles, he also collected military trucks, artillery and a small collection of infantry weapons.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them - and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap


as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

I suspect it depends on what you are up against as well. If you are largely up against people who are at most armed with small arms and improved weapons, WWII era vehicles and armour are likely to be very effective. Even against lightly armed military units they would pose a threat. My only question is this: would the 40th ID make use of such vehicles if they had access to depots and replacement parts? How soon do you think such things would run out?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

Irrelevant... ATGMs are not necessary to kill tanks. ATGMs are a defensive system, tanks are primarily killed by artillery with other tanks being number two. A tank spotted by an FO gets gifted contact fused HE really, really fast.

The WW2 comparison is a non starter too. Training even for Support troops includes how to kill tanks. The “tank terror” of the past is just that, in the past. A WW2 Sherman doesn't have enough armor in the hull sides to resist a 40mm HEDP round and those are used by both sides. Any infantryman is taught to make improvised explosives and Sappers even better. Saddle bag charges, satchel charges, and platter charges will do it and anyone is able to make thermite with brillo pads and aluminum powder from a paint supplier. A WW2 Sherman is up against 1990s Infantrymen with night vision, squad radios, and precise on call artillery support. Any 40mm HEDP or rifle grenade is going to punch right through the side armor of either the hull or turret. Once that happens the penetrating jet will slice right into the exposed ammunition, fuel cells, and crew in this tank with no spall liners or compartmentalized ammunition. Ronson, is the nickname, I believe.

Originally Posted by Olefin

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them

That had more to do with the Arabs very poor training, lack of coordination, little or no Command and Control locally, and lack of concentration of effort. On the Israeli side very superior training and outstanding air ground operation.

Very Well? Source Tank Encyclopedia. M50 "But the main test in large scale came with the Six-Day War in 1967. Virtually all M-50 and M-51 were thrown in action in Golan Heights and the West Bank and the Sinai peninsula, confronted with soviet WW2 era T-34/85s (Battle of Abu-Ageila) and SU-100 tanks. However, in 1973, these tanks were again committed in large numbers, despite their obsolescence and due to the desperate nature of the struggle. Losses were heavier since their opponents were better armed. however, it was shown that the 105 mm armed M51s were able to score kills on the T-54/55 and T-62s using HEAT ammunition."

The analogy boils down to …... Good troops with poor equipment will defeat poor troops with good equipment, all other considerations being equal, in any engagement.

[/QUOTE]- and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap [/QUOTE] The only ones worth a damn in that paragraph are the two M60s and the M47. Ship the Centurion to Canada in trade for something else. There is no ammo in the supply chain or spare parts for them. Most importantly there is no one trained to operate them or repair them. No place to train on them or instructors with knowledge on them. Give the Sherman to the California Highway Patrol to guard the Governors mansion or the State Treasury.

A tank with no ammunition, no radios, no spare parts, no one to operate it, no one to repair it, and no training available to fix that is a drain on scarce resources.

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

It is near enough the Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard and the Stanford/Palo Alto/ Menlo park areas to not have faired well at all. Indeed, the people that work or volunteer at the plae are probably dead from strikes on the Naval, Marine, and Air Force facilities all around the Bay.

As to Canon game material, you don't follow all of it, picking and choosing what you agree with and using that.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

Armor welding isn't magic. Thermite welding is used in Heavy Equipment too. There is nothing about the facility that isn't available 1000 times over spread out over the State wherever there is a Mine or earth moving contractor. The armor welding your alluding to special knowledge of, corresponds to welding composite armor, the layered steel, titanium, ceramic, depleted uranium, lead, and resins. Something that none of the tanks mentions has as part of its armor, hull, or chassis. Since all of these hull are Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA) the worst possible to be behind in modern times that doesn't matter.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Irrelevant... ATGMs are not necessary to kill tanks. ATGMs are a defensive system, tanks are primarily killed by artillery with other tanks being number two. A tank spotted by an FO gets gifted contact fused HE really, really fast.

The WW2 comparison is a non starter too. Training even for Support troops includes how to kill tanks. The “tank terror” of the past is just that, in the past. A WW2 Sherman doesn't have enough armor in the hull sides to resist a 40mm HEDP round and those are used by both sides. Any infantryman is taught to make improvised explosives and Sappers even better. Saddle bag charges, satchel charges, and platter charges will do it and anyone is able to make thermite with brillo pads and aluminum powder from a paint supplier. A WW2 Sherman is up against 1990s Infantrymen with night vision, squad radios, and precise on call artillery support. Any 40mm HEDP or rifle grenade is going to punch right through the side armor of either the hull or turret. Once that happens the penetrating jet will slice right into the exposed ammunition, fuel cells, and crew in this tank with no spall liners or compartmentalized ammunition. Ronson, is the nickname, I believe.

That had more to do with the Arabs very poor training, lack of coordination, little or no Command and Control locally, and lack of concentration of effort. On the Israeli side very superior training and outstanding air ground operation.

Very Well? Source Tank Encyclopedia. M50 "But the main test in large scale came with the Six-Day War in 1967. Virtually all M-50 and M-51 were thrown in action in Golan Heights and the West Bank and the Sinai peninsula, confronted with soviet WW2 era T-34/85s (Battle of Abu-Ageila) and SU-100 tanks. However, in 1973, these tanks were again committed in large numbers, despite their obsolescence and due to the desperate nature of the struggle. Losses were heavier since their opponents were better armed. however, it was shown that the 105 mm armed M51s were able to score kills on the T-54/55 and T-62s using HEAT ammunition."

The analogy boils down to …... Good troops with poor equipment will defeat poor troops with good equipment, all other considerations being equal, in any engagement.

- and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap [/QUOTE] The only ones worth a damn in that paragraph are the two M60s and the M47. Ship the Centurion to Canada in trade for something else. There is no ammo in the supply chain or spare parts for them. Most importantly there is no one trained to operate them or repair them. No place to train on them or instructors with knowledge on them. Give the Sherman to the California Highway Patrol to guard the Governors mansion or the State Treasury.

A tank with no ammunition, no radios, no spare parts, no one to operate it, no one to repair it, and no training available to fix that is a drain on scarce resources.


It is near enough the Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard and the Stanford/Palo Alto/ Menlo park areas to not have faired well at all. Indeed, the people that work or volunteer at the plae are probably dead from strikes on the Naval, Marine, and Air Force facilities all around the Bay.

As to Canon game material, you don't follow all of it, picking and choosing what you agree with and using that.



Armor welding isn't magic. Thermite welding is used in Heavy Equipment too. There is nothing about the facility that isn't available 1000 times over spread out over the State wherever there is a Mine or earth moving contractor. The armor welding your alluding to special knowledge of, corresponds to welding composite armor, the layered steel, titanium, ceramic, depleted uranium, lead, and resins. Something that none of the tanks mentions has as part of its armor, hull, or chassis. Since all of these hull are Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA) the worst possible to be behind in modern times that doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but I am following canon - the city of San Francisco is still there per the canon (read Howling Wilderness) - that means that it didnt get nuked out of existence - and Littlefield's collection was a long way from there - there are NO nuke targets anywhere near by - as in NONE - and armor welding is specialized enough that it took welders at BAE quite a while to train and pass testing needed to weld together our M88's - I know - I was the Quality Lead for the M88A2 program for 5 years at York

As for the Centurion Mk13 - you might want to actually look up its specs - it had the same gun that was on the original M1 - meaning that all the ammo it needs is sitting with the 40th ready to go - no need to send it to Canada - all they had to do was load the ammo racks

And all the tanks he restored had working radios - he even bought them straight from the military

Not quite sure what the issue is but Littlefield's Collection is there - as are those mechanics and a huge haul of working armored and other military vehicles - more than enough to give the 40th what it needs to kick the Mexican Army at the least clear back to the mountains north of LA

[Raellus]

If you want to use the Littlefield collection in your campaign, use it. If you don't, don't. As a neutral observer, it seems like this argument has nowhere to go but ugly. I'd prefer not to have to lock this thread, so, everyone, please keep it civil and constructive.

If you're not sure what that means,

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2961

Thanks.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sorry but I am following canon - the city of San Francisco is still there per the canon (read Howling Wilderness) - that means that it didnt get nuked out of existence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Fr...Naval_Shipyard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_I...Naval_Shipyard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasu..._San_Francisco

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suisun_Bay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_...val_Fuel_Depot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parks_..._Training_Area

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffett_Federal_Airfield

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Alameda

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Oakland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawren...nal_Laboratory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concor...eapons_Station

That is a short list of the things in or around San Francisco worth hitting with a nuke. There is no reason for the Soviets to have left them alone.

Originally Posted by Olefin

- and Littlefield's collection was a long way from there - there are NO nuke targets anywhere near by - as in NONE - and armor welding is specialized enough that it took welders at BAE quite a while to train and pass testing needed to weld together our M88's - I know - I was the Quality Lead for the M88A2 program for 5 years at York

Quite a few nukes if the Soviets are in anyway competent.

Originally Posted by Olefin

As for the Centurion Mk13 - you might want to actually look up its specs - it had the same gun that was on the original M1 - meaning that all the ammo it needs is sitting with the 40th ready to go - no need to send it to Canada - all they had to do was load the ammo racks

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...4200_Centurion

Yes, it has an L7. Who knows how to operate the sights? Who is a British Master Gunner? Not anyone in the 40th... Canada, yes.

It is a BRITISH tank. Meaning, NO Manuals and NO ONE that knows how to operate it. and NO one has any of the speialized metri tools for the engine or other parts. Give it to some one that would be able to use it.

Originally Posted by Olefin

And all the tanks he restored had working radios - he even bought them straight from the military

You do understand that radios have to be compatible to talk to each other. By the 90s voice and data encryption is standard across all Branches. Those WW2 radios and even the 50 and 60s radio have at best encrypted single channel, the easiest kind to interept, triangulate, and jam. Let alone their short operational range or that these antiques use vacuum tubes.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Not quite sure what the issue is but Littlefield's Collection is there - as are those mechanics and a huge haul of working armored and other military vehicles - more than enough to give the 40th what it needs to kick the Mexican Army at the least clear back to the mountains north of LA

I only have issue with the following things really.

One anything built before say 1965 isn't worth the effort to repair it and send into battled. If any of it was realistially useful in a military, that piee would not be sitting in a museum.

The point I am trying to drive home is LOGISTICS.

No one is taking the Shermans to war as there is no ammunition. No stored, none manufactured, the 75mm and 76mm are obsolete and retired from service. No Depot is going to trot out a crate the just happens to be there. Explosives are carefully maintained as these degrade in storage. After a time, the surplus is destroyed by incineration as the components are unstable.

No 30.06.... phased out in the 1950 and even the links are a different style.

the M60s, the M47, those work because in some fashion or another those are in the Supply. Parts are made for those. Usually for Allies, but the M60 AVLB is in use at the time. They work because they use current ammunition and current radios work in them on current mounts. Most importantly they work because there is trained people to use them and keep them running at the unit level.

You don't waste time and resources on things you cannot field and support at the user level. Who ares if some guy at Portola could fix the carburetor on the wonky Sherman.... the mechanic right there is L.A. cannot.

Lastly, my most important point... You don't send soldiers out to die. You send soldiers out to win those battles, not hamstringing them with obsolete machines that will get them killed. Those WW2 tanks don't have the armor to protect those men from the weakest of anti armor weapons or methods of the 1990s.

Take it from someone that has been shot at in an unarmored M1025 and had an uparmored M1114 blown out from under him by an IED. I appreciate the difference.

[Olefin]

the city is there ArmySgt whether you like it or not - the Soviets didnt hit every single target - thats why some areas got hit and others didnt - it wasnt an all out strike hitting every military target there was - and I dont think they would mention in Howling Wilderness how the city government was still in existence fi they city had been hit with a bunch of nukes

Plus look at where the Littlefield Collection is - i.e. its nowhere near San Francisco or any nuclear target - they could have hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder and it would still be there

And Littlefield had the manuals for the tanks - so thus whoever gets the tanks gets the manuals - which since they are British and thus in English they can read pretty easily - so you get a tank with 105mm cannon with plentiful ammo since the 40th has it in stock - not a bad little pick up

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

[Olefin]

Location of the collection is the following:

Location Portola Valley, California
Coordinates 37.200978°N 122.112816°W

Its in the mountains between San Jose and Santa Cruz

The ones that he had running and operational he had spare parts for - i.e. the whole collection wasnt operational but he had a significant amount of vehicles ranging from tanks to trucks to self propelled guns that were fully operational and had spare parts for - when the place was auctioned off a lot of what was bought was the huge spare part collection he had - and some of his vehicles (like his Ferret for instance) would have only needed to have functional machine guns put on them and they would have been fully ready for combat

As for ammo for the bigger vehicles - he had a lot of shells of various kinds that could have been used - they were practice rounds (and from what I understood he did have a small amount of live ammo as well) but those could have been made live - keep in mind that the many of the tanks and other armed vehicles he had used the same ammo that was already being used by MilGov units in the area (i.e. for instance for his M60A1 that had a live barrel and for his M60A2 with the live barrel as well as his Centurion Mk13 that used the same ammo that the M1 used) - so its more a case of some of the oddballs instead of most of what he had that was working

As an example of what he had this is the description of the M50 Israeli Sherman Tank that he had including its condition and the spares that came with it when it was auctioned off

Paul - can the ammo for the LAV-75 be used for that gun? The 40th had LAV-75's issued to it

"The tank being offered, M50 Israeli Sherman Medium Tank, is in beautiful condition. It is based on an M4A4 hull and has been upgraded by the Israelis with a Cummins diesel and HVSS. In Israeli terms, this version of the M50 is considered to have all of the final modifications done to it. It has the later engine deck with the exhaust louvers cut into it and the engine exhaust outlet mounted on the rear of the engine deck. An exhaust outlet for the auxiliary generator is fitted to the left side of the hull. It has full applique armor on both the hull and turret. A bracket for carrying a roll of barbed wire is mounted on the driver's applique armor plate. Exterior and interior paint are perfect. The turret bares the tank number “A-2” in Hebrew. All exterior lights are present and intact. A bracket for a main armament searchlight is mounted on the mantlet. However, the searchlight is not included. A canvas cover that is in excellent condition seals the gap between the gun mantlet and front of the turret. The turret roof in front of the commander's cupola has been fitted by the Israelis with a second machine gun pintle socket. The tracks, wheels and other suspension components are perfect. It is currently equipped with T84 rubber block tracks. Two different drive sprocket plates are fitted to this tank, the D47366B forged type and the D47366 flat plate type. The engine runs well and the vehicle drives well. All driver controls function normally. The turret has the hand-operated spotlight mounted on the roof. The commander's turret hatch rotates freely on its ball race. All hatches open and close normally. The canvas head pads on the hatches are in very good condition. The main armament elevates and depresses manually. The turret rotates manually. The operational status of the hydraulic turret traverse is not known. A U.S. VRC-type radio is installed inside the turret bustle; however, it is not known if it is operational. Crew intercom boxes are mounted at each crew station. All periscope glass is in good condition. Several spare periscope blocks are included. It comes equipped with six spare track links, two spare roadwheels, seven Israeli pattern plastic water cans, and several machine gun ammunition boxes. Pioneer tools included with the tank include the axe, mattock and mattock handle.

The M50 as the upgraded tank was called consisted of the 75-mm CN75-50 gun mounted in the modified turret.

Please note, this lot is a registered Destructive Device. Bidders for this lot must meet certain qualifications; please review the BATFE guidelines"

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Paul - can the ammo for the LAV-75 be used for that gun? The 40th had LAV-75's issued to it

....

The M50 as the upgraded tank was called consisted of the 75-mm CN75-50 gun mounted in the modified turret.

In a short word, no. Very different weapon systems; different breeches.

The Sherman's 75mm ammo would not fit in the breech, much less the loader in the LAV-75. The LAV-75's gun has more power - meaning the shells are longer and wider (and won't fit in the Sherman's breech); if forced in, there is a decent chance the breech would blow inside the tank.

The CN75-50 gun in the Israeli M-50 is a French postwar design - different from the US WW2 period weapon and the LAV-75s weapon.

Among the larger problems with using this antique weaponry is limited ammo. You can swap out the .30 cal MGs for M60s easily enough, but in 1999, it will be difficult to find a factory to restart making old 75mm shells.

It's not technically difficult, but difficult to recreate and coordinate the retooling and supply chain needed to do so. Though there is probably some left in an army depot somewhere.... (sounds like an scenario or two).

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Oh I bet there is all kinds of stuff still in army depots - and considering Littlefield's resources (and that fact that the tanks had live barrels) I can bet that he had at least some live shells to go with them - and by 2001 even a couple of dozen shells a piece isnt bad considering that outside of vehicles issued to parties for starting campaigns you dont see many out there with full ammo loads (unless they are only armed with machine guns or very common rounds like for the M1 that they made untold numbers of shells for)

and yes having an adventure to find ammo stored away in an old depot sounds like a very good idea indeed

and there is even a great place to do so in CA - i.e. the Sierra Army Depot in Herlong, CA

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Oh I bet there is all kinds of stuff still in army depots - and considering Littlefield's resources (and that fact that the tanks had live barrels) I can bet that he had at least some live shells to go with them - and by 2001 even a couple of dozen shells a piece isnt bad considering that outside of vehicles issued to parties for starting campaigns you dont see many out there with full ammo loads (unless they are only armed with machine guns or very common rounds like for the M1 that they made untold numbers of shells for)

and yes having an adventure to find ammo stored away in an old depot sounds like a very good idea indeed

and there is even a great place to do so in CA - i.e. the Sierra Army Depot in Herlong, CA

The Federal government doesn't even allow the National Guard to store available ammunition above 7.62N.

The State of California sure isnt going to let a civilian have hundreds of rounds of tank or artillery ammunition.

Anything over .50 BMG is regulated by the ATF and has to be purchased as a Destructive Device. Every single one of them on a Form 1 with stamp or it is Federal prison time for person in possession.

The required by Federal Law safeguards alone are cost prohibitive and failing to secure them properly is fines and possible jail too.

To say that Littlefield would have more than props or training/practice munitions is a huge stretch.

The man died of cancer.... There is no reason for that to be different in an alternate timeline with no different medical institutions.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by unkated

In a short word, no. Very different weapon systems; different breeches.

The Sherman's 75mm ammo would not fit in the breech, much less the loader in the LAV-75. The LAV-75's gun has more power - meaning the shells are longer and wider (and won't fit in the Sherman's breech); if forced in, there is a decent chance the breech would blow inside the tank.

The CN75-50 gun in the Israeli M-50 is a French postwar design - different from the US WW2 period weapon and the LAV-75s weapon.

Among the larger problems with using this antique weaponry is limited ammo. You can swap out the .30 cal MGs for M60s easily enough, but in 1999, it will be difficult to find a factory to restart making old 75mm shells.

It's not technically difficult, but difficult to recreate and coordinate the retooling and supply chain needed to do so. Though there is probably some left in an army depot somewhere.... (sounds like an scenario or two).

Uncle Ted

What he said.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

And I agree with Paul - remember the canon statement in the US Army Vehicle Guide - and I quote "by 2000 virtually anything with armor and a gun was being used by armored units in the United States as a tank"

Thus even a fully functional Sherman tank would be considered a very useful addition to any US unit by 2000-2001

[Enfield]

The main thing I have as a concern about WWII-early Cold War vehicles is this: maintenance. Is it worth the trouble? What would be more readily available replacement parts for existing vehicles for the division or this stuff?

For example, I love the M20 Greyhound as a vehicle, I even had a model of one as a kid that I put together with loving care--but why get one if Humvees are available? Other than rule of cool?

On the other hand, if there are severe interruptions of supply and parts and replacements, then I could totally see it. I know at least one of my players would be down for it as he is a serious afficionado about that era.

[Olefin]

Having Littlefield there would mean those vehicles have spare parts and are in good condition. He would be the difference between vehicles from there and ones that get pulled out of a museum or found in some collector's garage

FYI there is definitely a canon reference to players finding an armored vehicle in a collectors garage - see the Gateway to the Spanish Main module - a fully functional M113 APC that only needs a battery and fuel (or conversion to alcohol from gas) and a machine gun to put on the pintle

[mpipes]

I have a hidden away WWII underground abandoned depot with several tanks and APCs as well as trucks loaded with loot.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Having Littlefield there would mean those vehicles have spare parts and are in good condition. He would be the difference between vehicles from there and ones that get pulled out of a museum or found in some collector's garage

No, it doesn't. There is a finite supply of parts and by no means something for every possible action or break down. Then, there are limits to what the people there (if their alive) are able to make on site. Some of that requires smelters, multi ton casting, and the machinery to work on something very large indeed, like a tanks road wheels or drive bogie. Given years, sure. In the need, right now, of active fighting something not in the supply chain is going to get abandoned or burned then abandoned. There is no way that Littlefield has an endless supply of parts, filters, belts, track pads, and all ephemera for sustained combat. Enough with months to prepare for a vanity lap outside, perhaps.

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI there is definitely a canon reference to players finding an armored vehicle in a collectors garage - see the Gateway to the Spanish Main module - a fully functional M113 APC that only needs a battery and fuel (or conversion to alcohol from gas) and a machine gun to put on the pintle

An M113 is atleast current. Though M113 versus A2 or A3 and the engine parts would be a 350 gasoline motor. Just enough armor for big bullets and shrapnel to enter then bounce around inside shredding the passengers.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

The main thing I have as a concern about WWII-early Cold War vehicles is this: maintenance. Is it worth the trouble? What would be more readily available replacement parts for existing vehicles for the division or this stuff?

Bluntly, NO.

It takes months to train people, whether that is a tanker or a mechanic.

That and the WW2 stuff is over matched by the Mexican Infantry fighting vehicles.

The hull front has 51mm of armor and the sides have 38mm.

The 20mmx139mm RH202 on the Mexican IFVs defeats 55m with older DM43 AP-i ammo and 60mm DM63 APDS, even newer defeats more than 70mm of rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) the cast steel stuff before the 1970s composites entered the scene.

Worse for the Sherman. It has a day only range finder and no weapons stabilization.

Anything the Mexians have has 2 axis weapon stabilization, passive IR at a minimum, and a laser range finder. The IFV would be making hits of the Sherman while moving and the Sherman has to stop for the gunner to even try.

20mm is the smallest gun, there is a jump up to 25mm on the DN1, and the ERC - 90 has a 90mm with HEAT ammunition. They have all the same advantages over the Sherman too.

This is without the Infantry dismounted using their 40mm grenade launchers to smoke and blind the Sherman or HEPD (50mm penetration) to kill it. The units Carl Gustaf 84mm recoilless Rifles, or Unit M40A1 106mm Recoilless rifles. All the while with a Forward Observer bringing down 105mm artillery shells that will blast through a Sherman's 25mm of roof armor.

This is important due to the Shermans all in the hull design. There is no anti spall liner, armored munitions compartment, or even separation from the fuel. A hull penetration means fire and probably an ammunition detonation.

The M8 has even less armor and the same handicaps.

The stuff in the museum that is late 60s and 70s is the best option. American so there is ammunition, parts, and most importantly people who would have some training to use it. A tank is a big paper weight without a trained crew. Training for just a simple tanker private, whose first job is loader takes weeks at Ft Knox. An experienced Tank Commander is years in the making on something familiar and with frequent drill.

Then you run into problems like the radios are not able to work with the modern 80s and 90s radios.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

How?

Who maintains it in the field? Where do they train gunnery? Who trains them on gunnery for that matter? Who has trak pad and pins every 500 miles?

Running them is going to be a huge xhore. There are no radios in them that talk to modern radios, no main gun ammunition, 30.06 linked? Where are you getting that? Optical range finding equipment in daylight only, and severely degraded night fighting.

To put a Sherman in the field takes hundreds of man hours of resources to get it running, then hundreds of hours to train maintainers for engine, tranny, turret, and ordnance, then hundreds of hours in driving and gunnery to get a crew even familiar with it.

For a tank that won't last five minutes in a fight.

Better off going into the desert (Ft Irwin, Twenty Nine Palms) and hauling out the M47s and M48s used as targets. That way atleast you will find people with some of the knowledge to make them useful and survive for a bit.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

How?

Who maintains it in the field? Where do they train gunnery? Who trains them on gunnery for that matter? Who has trak pad and pins every 500 miles?

Running them is going to be a huge xhore. There are no radios in them that talk to modern radios, no main gun ammunition, 30.06 linked? Where are you getting that? Optical range finding equipment in daylight only, and severely degraded night fighting.

To put a Sherman in the field takes hundreds of man hours of resources to get it running, then hundreds of hours to train maintainers for engine, tranny, turret, and ordnance, then hundreds of hours in driving and gunnery to get a crew even familiar with it.

For a tank that won't last five minutes in a fight.

Better off going into the desert (Ft Irwin, Twenty Nine Palms) and hauling out the M47s and M48s used as targets. That way atleast you will find people with some of the knowledge to make them useful and survive for a bit.

Except for one little problem - the Mexican Army has both places - so you go with the next best thing. And those Shermans were in running condition with live barrels. As for ordnance - the Centurion Mk13 used the same shells that the M1 did that was part of the 40th - ditto the M60A1 and the M60's that they had - and the M60A2 used the same ordinance that the M551 used - which would have still been around and kicking - as for machine gun ammo - have a feeling the US Army had a lot of it still available

And the tanks had brand new track pads and pins on them - and 500 miles is more than enough to take those tanks to the Mexican border from where Littlefield's collection was

And against a bunch of Mexican infantry armed mostly with side arms and rifles a Sherman would do just fine

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually working on a California module right now and have been looking at the 40th and what they may have by April of 2001 - and also what they might have by June of 2001 by using a resource that the game designers didnt know would be there - i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

and I dont agree with a complete collapse of civilization - there will be pockets that would still be in good shape in 2001 - especially if you have working power generation capability and areas that have oil still available - and the area where the 40th is has both - especially oil - i.e. the Bakersfield oil fields were not nuked and the refinery most likely stayed in US hands - and as the canon said where there is still oil and still power there is civilization - and given the amount of nuclear technicians in the USN and elsewhere in the area the Diablo Canyon power plant is a major possibility for power

So take power + oil + water (its the one place in CA where water even in a drought situation is probably still plentiful) and you have a very good possibility that civilization,while taking it on the chin, is not in collapse mode - versus LA to the south that had multiple nuke hits as well as an almost total lack of water and power generation and oil

That's my general thought as well--I thought that a large enclave zone would make sense with the area between Bakersfield and LA being scavenged and patrolled. I thought it would be fun if there were communities that the Player Characters would also try to get into contact with to gain intel, resources and assistance from in exchange for miltary assistance of whatever kind.

i also wondered what would happen to the other military and state police assets down around there, it strikes me as considerable in numbers and that they should not be written off so casually.