Twilight 2025

[Raellus]

I think the issue of societal breakdown and civil disorder is one that gets exaggerated in both directions. I don't quite buy the sheep, wolves, sheepdogs trope. I don't think the country would descend into Mad Max levels of lawlessness and depredation. On the other hand, I don't think that the Federal Gov't, even with a year or two to prepare, in earnest, for nuclear war, is going to be able to make provisions to shelter, feed, clothe, and provide medical care for tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of refugees (i.e. people evacuating potential nuclear target areas or fleeing the vicinity of an actual strike). Even if the Gov't could lay in adequate provisions, once fossil fuels are in short supply (and refineries are the priority target for nuclear attacks, according to v1 & v2 canon lists), it's going to be extremely difficult to get aid to the people that need it (or vice-versa). Millions will go hungry. Hundreds of thousands of refugees will die of starvation, exposure, or communicable diseases like cholera and typhus- maybe not right away, but over the first few years after the TDM, the death toll is going to be catastrophic. This doesn't even take into account victims of nuclear strikes (read Susan Southard's, Nagasaki: Life After Nuclear War) for a thorough description of what it was like to live through a relatively small nuclear bomb attack).

Seriously, aside from farmers and "preppers", how many citizens are going to know how to cope [well] when the lights go out, the water shuts off, gas pumps run dry, and the grocery store shelves are empty? 10%? I think that's a probably a generous estimate.

So, I think it's more likely conditions across the U.S.A. are going to become dire relatively quickly- not Mad Max dire, but pretty dire. I agree with SSC that people today, more reliant on digital aides than even 10 years ago, are going to be much less able to cope than folks could have back when T2K was first written.

Will surviving law enforcement, whether it be military or civilian, be able to cope with the apocalypse? I think the answer is, it will largely depend on a number of factors. To name a few,

Urban v. rural.
Was there a nuclear strike in the region?
Are/were there hostile conventional forces in the region?
Is there a strong military presence in the region?
How prepared and competent is local law enforcement?
Were there significant criminal elements in place before the war started?

So, there's no universal answer to the question, "how bad will it be?" As a GM, it's up to us to look at the above and make decisions about local conditions. It's quite a challenge, but it's a big part of the fun of T2K, IMHO.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Prompted by what Raellus said, I should point out that I didn't intend to give the idea that society would break down to complete lawlessness e.g. Mad Max or Tom Clancy's The Division. Nor give the idea that everyone would start bringing on the chaos in a few weeks because they couldn't get their morning cup of tea/coffee.

It was more to stress the idea that for a 2025 conflict, we are talking about Western societies that have a heavy reliance on electricity and petroleum fuels to keep their societies running. Once something interferes with that, most city dwellers are going to be sitting back waiting for the government to fix the problem. The government is unlikely to be able to respond to these problems as quickly as they have in the past for two reasons.

1. The way they deal with these situations has changed relative to the use of "just in time" deliveries.
2. There's a war going on.

I'm inclined to think that any country that is accepting lots of refugees is going to really feel the strain from this and will have a difficult time preventing societal breakdown from happening once rationing, blackouts and late deliveries become the norm.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

...start bringing on the chaos in a few weeks because they couldn't get their morning cup of tea/coffee.

You SURE about that?

Attachment 4132

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You SURE about that?

Attachment 4132

I do believe that the "Combat Effectiveness" of any US unit would be reduced by 50% if you simply deprived them of Coffee. This is untested as no Army Command is willing to risk the consequences of testing this theory. There are three things you simply DON'T do in the Army...

1) You never screw with the Mail Clerk, Mess Section, or Pay Clerk.
2) You treat ALL pregnant females as "emotionally disturbed persons."
3) You NEVER F**K with the coffee.

[Marconi]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I do believe that this comprehensive review of ZQuiet would be reduced by 50% if you simply deprived them of Coffee. This is untested as no Army Command is willing to risk the consequences of testing this theory. There are three things you simply DON'T do in the Army...

1) You never screw with the Mail Clerk, Mess Section, or Pay Clerk.
2) You treat ALL pregnant females as "emotionally disturbed persons."
3) You NEVER F**K with the coffee.

I also believe you're right regarding the coffee thing. But soon enough the technology will allow us to test the heck out of theories like that one in VR.

[Heffe3737]

Originally Posted by Marconi

I also believe you're right regarding the coffee thing. But soon enough the technology will allow us to test the heck out of theories like that one in VR.

This isn't just in the US either. I do a lot of work in the outsourcing industry, and the number 1 thing employees at locations all over the world agree on, is that coffee is an absolute essential when it comes to productivity.

As a side note, if you run a business and don't offer free coffee to your employees, they very likely secretly hate you for it.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Heffe3737

This isn't just in the US either. I do a lot of work in the outsourcing industry, and the number 1 thing employees at locations all over the world agree on, is that coffee is an absolute essential when it comes to productivity.

As a side note, if you run a business and don't offer free coffee to your employees, they very likely secretly hate you for it.

I must have been in a different military than you all, yes we had our coffee drinkers, but with one individual exception we did not have anyone who was so into it that they even had a coffee pot in the unit. We did have the Army issued pot that got pulled out for official functions, but not day to day. When we were in the field no one that I can remember had to have their cup of Joe. The coffee at the warming stations always had some left when it was picked up, the soup on the other had was gone in no time.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You SURE about that?

Attachment 4132

Always remember that a yawn is just a silent scream for coffee.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Prompted by what Raellus said, I should point out that I didn't intend to give the idea that society would break down to complete lawlessness e.g. Mad Max or Tom Clancy's The Division. Nor give the idea that everyone would start bringing on the chaos in a few weeks because they couldn't get their morning cup of tea/coffee.

It was more to stress the idea that for a 2025 conflict, we are talking about Western societies that have a heavy reliance on electricity and petroleum fuels to keep their societies running. Once something interferes with that, most city dwellers are going to be sitting back waiting for the government to fix the problem. The government is unlikely to be able to respond to these problems as quickly as they have in the past for two reasons.

1. The way they deal with these situations has changed relative to the use of "just in time" deliveries.
2. There's a war going on.

I'm inclined to think that any country that is accepting lots of refugees is going to really feel the strain from this and will have a difficult time preventing societal breakdown from happening once rationing, blackouts and late deliveries become the norm.

It might be that way, but once folks believe the "Thin Blue Line" is gone, it is gone. And then people get stupid and vicious, the Government response won't be much better either if it believes it's survival is at stake.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

It might be that way, but once folks believe the "Thin Blue Line" is gone, it is gone. And then people get stupid and vicious, the Government response won't be much better either if it believes it's survival is at stake.

I tend to agree with you watching riots break out in New York City and Pittsburgh whenever there are power outages. I think the real issue is twofold;

1) How poor do you "perceive" yourself to be in comparison to your neighbors?
2) How WELL do you "know" your neighbors?

If you know all your neighbors and are on a fairly equal economic basis with them, you will often see mutual support and assistance from those communities. Such communities tend to be smaller with a more "integrated" social system (everyone attends the same schools, churches, and social functions).

On the other hand, if you don't associate with your neighbors regularly, or even know their names, it is easy to view them as a "resource" instead of as "people." Add to this the fact that cities usually have limited resources available (leading to competition for those resources) and you have a disaster in the making.

In addition, if you view yourself as "marginalized" by the vast majority of society, a major disruption could be your chance to not only acquire "resources" that are otherwise unavailable to you but also to "punish" those you feel have kept you in poverty. I think of the people in Baltimore looting and burning the CVS Pharmacy during the protests for Freddy Gray. What exactly did CVS do to cause Freddy Gey to die? NOTHING! It was a convenient excuse to loot that CVS.

This behavior is what will cause the most damage to major cities in the War.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I tend to agree with you watching riots break out in New York City and Pittsburgh whenever there are power outages. I think the real issue is twofold;

1) How poor do you "perceive" yourself to be in comparison to your neighbors?
2) How WELL do you "know" your neighbors?

If you know all your neighbors and are on a fairly equal economic basis with them, you will often see mutual support and assistance from those communities. Such communities tend to be smaller with a more "integrated" social system (everyone attends the same schools, churches, and social functions).

On the other hand, if you don't associate with your neighbors regularly, or even know their names, it is easy to view them as a "resource" instead of as "people." Add to this the fact that cities usually have limited resources available (leading to competition for those resources) and you have a disaster in the making.

In addition, if you view yourself as "marginalized" by the vast majority of society, a major disruption could be your chance to not only acquire "resources" that are otherwise unavailable to you but also to "punish" those you feel have kept you in poverty. I think of the people in Baltimore looting and burning the CVS Pharmacy during the protests for Freddy Gray. What exactly did CVS do to cause Freddy Gey to die? NOTHING! It was a convenient excuse to loot that CVS.

This behavior is what will cause the most damage to major cities in the War.

Yes, the best and worst comes out in people.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think these may have been discussed before on the forum but they fit in here well enough as a colour/background element of any post-apocalypse scenario.
Specifically I am talking about two ideas to get long-range comms back after the breakdown.

The first is a concept still in use by ham radio operators so is very much a proven idea. Earth-Moon-Earth communications, basically you aim your microwave transmitter at the Moon and someone somewhere else in the world can pick it up with their microwave receiver.
Quite a bit easier than trying to get a hold of working comms satellites, finding a suitable launch vehicle, fuelling said launch vehicle and then getting the satellite into orbit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%..._communication

The second is a little more difficult and has a limited life span of a year or two. Difficult because it does require a rocket to deliver a package into orbit and the package itself needs some thought put into how it will deliver its contents but the concept itself is incredibly simple.
Essentially, a collection of short lengths of copper wire, placed in orbit, function like a giant antenna. It was a serious consideration in the 1950s when North America and Western Europe had either ionospheric radio or undersea cable as their only means of long-range communication with each other.
But their are issues with seeding near-Earth orbit with 20kg of copper wire, aside from finding a suitable rocket to get it there.
https://www.wired.com/2013/08/project-west-ford/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford

Both concepts could be attractive solutions for rapidly re-establishing communication in a world that is very dependent on satellites for long-range comms these days.

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, putting even MORE shrapnel into orbit sounds like a wonderful idea.
What could possibly go wrong?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I think these may have been discussed before on the forum but they fit in here well enough as a colour/background element of any post-apocalypse scenario.
Specifically I am talking about two ideas to get long-range comms back after the breakdown.

The first is a concept still in use by ham radio operators so is very much a proven idea. Earth-Moon-Earth communications, basically you aim your microwave transmitter at the Moon and someone somewhere else in the world can pick it up with their microwave receiver.
Quite a bit easier than trying to get a hold of working comms satellites, finding a suitable launch vehicle, fuelling said launch vehicle and then getting the satellite into orbit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%..._communication

The second is a little more difficult and has a limited life span of a year or two. Difficult because it does require a rocket to deliver a package into orbit and the package itself needs some thought put into how it will deliver its contents but the concept itself is incredibly simple.
Essentially, a collection of short lengths of copper wire, placed in orbit, function like a giant antenna. It was a serious consideration in the 1950s when North America and Western Europe had either ionospheric radio or undersea cable as their only means of long-range communication with each other.
But their are issues with seeding near-Earth orbit with 20kg of copper wire, aside from finding a suitable rocket to get it there.
https://www.wired.com/2013/08/project-west-ford/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford

Both concepts could be attractive solutions for rapidly re-establishing communication in a world that is very dependent on satellites for long-range comms these days.

Don't forget about Single Side-Band Radio.

While VHF and UHF are both basically limited to "line-of-sight" communications (about 50km to 75km with a VERY tall whip antenna) without prepositioned "Rebounders" (tall towers that amplify and redirect the radio signal to extend the signal range up to around 150km based on their position), SSB is NOT so limited.

For those who are unfamiliar with Single Side Band Radio, it is a radio that operates in the lower Megahertz band and uses the atmosphere to bounce a signal a LONG WAY off. While primarily used by sailing vessels, it can also be found on ground installations. It can be identified by its long (25ft+) whip antenna with an unusual metal "directional" dish at the bottom (a disk angled upwards). Significantly powerful radios (up to 1000 watts output) have transmitted CLEARLY at ranges exceeding 7000km. The signal is bounced off of the Ionosphere and the higher the Sun is, the lower the frequency range you need (3 to 5 MHZ) while a higher frequency (8+ MHZ) is needed in a lower "charged Ionosphere" (the sun is setting or down). Many of these units could have survived, being on board both merchant vessels and sailing cruisers (who even have their own radio nets to use) during The Exchange.