Opinions Please - Are Assault Rifles Perfected?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's possible, but I'm thinking it'll most likely be in the ammunition itself, probably with the development of a stable caseless round.
4.7mm as used by the G11 had loads of potential, but I believe there were still problems with the propellant cooking off, or being effected by moisture (possibly both). All would have been sorted out in time though I think...

Caseless ammo has bigger problems.

(1) Fragile: dropping a caseless round (even in a magazine) can cause the propellant to crack or completely break, leading to a malfunction.

(2) Malfunctions: to clear a malfunction on the G11 you essentially had to field strip the gun. For regular cased ammo, operating the bolt manually (to eject the unfired round and chamber a fresh round) is usually sufficient.

(3) Overheating: Brass cases absorb heat from the propellant exploding and are then ejected out of the gun. Caseless rounds don have this to get rid of some of the heat from firing and will overheat much faster.

No, caseless ammo is really a dead end.

(Talking about small arms here, not the ammo for larger cannons and howitzers)

[CDAT]

So just making sure are you asking about assault rifles (M-16 and such) and battle rifles (M-14 and such), or assault rifles and carbines (M-4 and such), or just any shoulder arm that may be carried by troops today?

[Raellus]

I think the major issue that's affecting assault rifle efficacy is the intermediate cartridge/round. I don't think the tech. will be "perfect" until this is adequately addressed.

Combat experience has demonstrated that the 5.56mm round is too light, lacking the range, and penetration/stopping power to effectively engage targets at anything beyond 100m. It's adequate for MOUT/CQB, but when the enemy aren't up close, like in most of Afghanistan, it's a problem.

Heavier rounds, like the 7.62x54mm perform better at longer ranges, but the more powerful cartridge generates more recoil, negatively impacting accuracy (especially during automatic fire) and causing generating more wear and tear on the internal action.

So, once a better intermediary round is adopted, then yes, assault rifle tech. will pretty much be perfected. I'm sure that there will be continued debate over the best internal action (delayed blow-back, gas piston v. gas impingement, etc.).

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think the major issue that's affecting assault rifle efficacy is the intermediate cartridge/round. I don't think the tech. will be "perfect" until this is adequately addressed.

Combat experience has demonstrated that the 5.56mm round is too light, lacking the range, and penetration/stopping power to effectively engage targets at anything beyond 100m. It's adequate for MOUT/CQB, but when the enemy aren't up close, like in most of Afghanistan, it's a problem.

Heavier rounds, like the 7.62x54mm perform better at longer ranges, but the more powerful cartridge generates more recoil, negatively impacting accuracy (especially during automatic fire) and causing generating more wear and tear on the internal action.

So, once a better intermediary round is adopted, then yes, assault rifle tech. will pretty much be perfected. I'm sure that there will be continued debate over the best internal action (delayed blow-back, gas piston v. gas impingement, etc.).

I would have liked to see the 6.5, 6.8, or even a .243 Caliber become common. NATO is happy with both the 9mm and the 5.56mmN and I do not foresee a change in the near future. Based on the questionable performance of the Chinese 5.8mm round, I'm not entirely sure there is one round that does it all.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think the major issue that's affecting assault rifle efficacy is the intermediate cartridge/round. I don't think the tech. will be "perfect" until this is adequately addressed.

The problem is that there is no "perfect" rifle/round combination. What is ideal for the open spaces of Afghanistan is not ideal for the forests of Europe or room clearing in a highrise building.

Given that, the current rifle/round combinations are reasonable compromises.

[kalos72]

Being able to change uppers...and therefore change calibers for your task would be great. Using the same physical sized magazine, just with different calibers would be nice.

Think 5.56 and .458 SOCOM style philosophy....

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think the major issue that's affecting assault rifle efficacy is the intermediate cartridge/round. I don't think the tech. will be "perfect" until this is adequately addressed.

...

But then it is no longer an Assault Rifle, you are moving back into the Battle Rifle realm.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I sincerely believe that the concept of Battle Rifle and Assault Rifle are flawed and do not actually contribute to the understanding of what they are & how they are used.

The terms are too arbitrary, for instance, according to prevailing thought, these two rifles are Battle Rifles: -
.303 bolt-action SMLE
7.62x51mm select-fire G3

The 5.56mm HK33 is classed as "Assault" Rifle by virtue of it's ammo even thought it is identical in form and function to the G3.
The G3 is lumped together with the SMLE even though they share almost nothing in common regarding design, design philosophy, function and usage.

Given that we have certain designs in several calibres that make the one design available as both battle and assault rifle and we also have what are basically SMGs that fire 5.56mm (commonly called Micro Assault Rifles rather than SMG), I think part of the problem with deciding if "assault" rifles are perfected, is how they are defined.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I sincerely believe that the concept of Battle Rifle and Assault Rifle are flawed and do not actually contribute to the understanding of what they are & how they are used.

The terms are too arbitrary, for instance, according to prevailing thought, these two rifles are Battle Rifles: -
.303 bolt-action SMLE
7.62x51mm select-fire G3

The 5.56mm HK33 is classed as "Assault" Rifle by virtue of it's ammo even thought it is identical in form and function to the G3.
The G3 is lumped together with the SMLE even though they share almost nothing in common regarding design, design philosophy, function and usage.

Given that we have certain designs in several calibres that make the one design available as both battle and assault rifle and we also have what are basically SMGs that fire 5.56mm (commonly called Micro Assault Rifles rather than SMG), I think part of the problem with deciding if "assault" rifles are perfected, is how they are defined.

At least what I was taught the G3 and the SMLE are not in the same class. Just becasue it is used in battle does not make it a battle rifle. One is a bolt action rifle the other is a Battle Rifle. To be a battle rifle it has to be selective fire using a full power cartridge, so a bolt action is not going to fall under that. And the Assault rifle has to be the same as a battle rifle but it uses an intermediate cartridge.

As for having the same designs in several calibers you can have in the same basic design a SMG (uses pistol cartridges), Assault Rifle, and Battle Rifles. But the different cartridges and what goes with it does make a very big difference, at least I think so.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by CDAT

At least what I was taught the G3 and the SMLE are not in the same class. Just becasue it is used in battle does not make it a battle rifle. One is a bolt action rifle the other is a Battle Rifle. To be a battle rifle it has to be selective fire using a full power cartridge, so a bolt action is not going to fall under that. And the Assault rifle has to be the same as a battle rifle but it uses an intermediate cartridge.

This is very close to what I have heard, as well.

As for having the same designs in several calibers you can have in the same basic design a SMG (uses pistol cartridges), Assault Rifle, and Battle Rifles. But the different cartridges and what goes with it does make a very big difference, at least I think so.

The SMG is arguably becoming obsolete, with very short-barreled assault rifles avalable.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The 5.56mm HK33 is classed as "Assault" Rifle by virtue of it's ammo even thought it is identical in form and function to the G3.

One uses a full-sized round, the other an intermediate round. This is by far the biggest difference and is what matters.

whatThe G3 is lumped together with the SMLE even though they share almost nothing in common regarding design, design philosophy, function and usage.

Only you are lumping them together. The SMLE is an obsolete service rifle (all bolt-action rifles are obsolete as infantryman's weapons) while even the G3 and FAL are only obsolescent.
.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by copeab

Caseless ammo has bigger problems.

(1) Fragile: dropping a caseless round (even in a magazine) can cause the propellant to crack or completely break, leading to a malfunction.

(2) Malfunctions: to clear a malfunction on the G11 you essentially had to field strip the gun. For regular cased ammo, operating the bolt manually (to eject the unfired round and chamber a fresh round) is usually sufficient.

(3) Overheating: Brass cases absorb heat from the propellant exploding and are then ejected out of the gun. Caseless rounds don have this to get rid of some of the heat from firing and will overheat much faster.

No, caseless ammo is really a dead end.

(Talking about small arms here, not the ammo for larger cannons and howitzers)

I think MetalStorm's digitally/electrically detonated caseless propellant is really the wave of the future. The US Navy successfully deployed a number of 40mm MetalStorm units as a close combat weapon on ships. The ammunition is reliable and the rate of fire is INSANE.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I think MetalStorm's digitally/electrically detonated caseless propellant is really the wave of the future. The US Navy successfully deployed a number of 40mm MetalStorm units as a close combat weapon on ships. The ammunition is reliable and the rate of fire is INSANE.

And it was developed here in Australia too.

Yes, current caseless ammo has it's problems as I mentioned in my earlier post, but, should those problems be solved, the benefits will be huge - twice the ammo carrying capacity for each soldier just for a start, not to mention larger magazine capacity for smaller bulk. Alternatively, a larger calibre for the same (or even less) weight and bulk, resulting in greater hitting power and penetration.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And it was developed here in Australia too.

Yes, current caseless ammo has it's problems as I mentioned in my earlier post, but, should those problems be solved, the benefits will be huge - twice the ammo carrying capacity for each soldier just for a start, not to mention larger magazine capacity for smaller bulk. Alternatively, a larger calibre for the same (or even less) weight and bulk, resulting in greater hitting power and penetration.

The interesting thing about MetalStorm is that the "propellant" is sprayed onto the round and is totally INERT even when burned until you put the right current (in Amps, Volts AND Ohms) to it. This allows the stacking of rounds inside a barrel while still being able to fire just a single round without detonating the others. This also allows a digitally programmable rate of fire with a theoretical limit of ONE MILLION ROUNDS PER MINUTE. I think this is going to be the future of personal projectile weapons. The Navy's 40mm Grenade Launchers were originally conventional rounds with special priming that used a contact to program the fuse for either proximity or contact detonation. The launcher allowed this THROUGH the MetalStorm ignition system.

[pmulcahy11b]

Basically, nothing is ever perfected -- humans aren't capable of that. Things are modified to make them better (or worse -- or offer no improvement at all), or a (usually grudging) admittance that a new model is need (or that it is needed to go back to an earlier but better model).

No, the assault rifle is not perfected. Many of the projected future improvements are based on ammunition (whether using harder-hitting rounds or exotic rounds like caseless, case-telescoped, synthetic-cased, or electromagnetic rounds a la the original Traveller gauss rifle). Other possibilities include modified service ammunition, including flechettes and duplex ammunition. Lots of possibilities there for improvement.

Other possible improvements include a direct gas system without the problems of the Stoner direct-impingement gas system, conversion of existing rifles or new designs using a bullpup layout (something I firmly believe is far better than continually shortening the barrels of existing conventional-layout assault rifles), and better ways of attaching accessories to the assault rifle.

Other room for improvement includes better sights, particularly in the area of add-on sights (none issued to the military satisfy everyone, and different types are needed to be issued for different missions right now), muzzle brakes for SBAR that do not throw up a large exhaust and IR signature, and barrels for assault rifles that can be switched for a different barrel length by the user, and muzzles are threaded to allow suppressors or muzzle brakes to be mounted that do not require that the weapon be turned into the armorer.

And that's just what I can think of in the spur of the moment. I'm sure there's more room for improvements.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The interesting thing about MetalStorm is that the "propellant" is sprayed onto the round and is totally INERT even when burned until you put the right current (in Amps, Volts AND Ohms) to it. This allows the stacking of rounds inside a barrel while still being able to fire just a single round without detonating the others. This also allows a digitally programmable rate of fire with a theoretical limit of ONE MILLION ROUNDS PER MINUTE. I think this is going to be the future of personal projectile weapons. The Navy's 40mm Grenade Launchers were originally conventional rounds with special priming that used a contact to program the fuse for either proximity or contact detonation. The launcher allowed this THROUGH the MetalStorm ignition system.

One very practical application I could think of would be as a "disposable" ad-hoc CIWS setup to take out drones or incoming missiles. Of course, you'd need to have incredible guesstimation skill for the missiles.

[Olefin]

From Paul -
"Basically, nothing is ever perfected -- humans aren't capable of that. Things are modified to make them better (or worse -- or offer no improvement at all), or a (usually grudging) admittance that a new model is need (or that it is needed to go back to an earlier but better model)."

Amen there Paul - never seen any weapon system that you could say was now perfect

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

One very practical application I could think of would be as a "disposable" ad-hoc CIWS setup to take out drones or incoming missiles. Of course, you'd need to have incredible guesstimation skill for the missiles.

That is essentially what they bought them for. The secondary use would be against small boat swarms like the boats the Iranians are using in the Gulf.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by copeab

Caseless ammo has bigger problems.

(1) Fragile: dropping a caseless round (even in a magazine) can cause the propellant to crack or completely break, leading to a malfunction.

(2) Malfunctions: to clear a malfunction on the G11 you essentially had to field strip the gun. For regular cased ammo, operating the bolt manually (to eject the unfired round and chamber a fresh round) is usually sufficient.

(3) Overheating: Brass cases absorb heat from the propellant exploding and are then ejected out of the gun. Caseless rounds don have this to get rid of some of the heat from firing and will overheat much faster.

No, caseless ammo is really a dead end.

(Talking about small arms here, not the ammo for larger cannons and howitzers)

Got to hold a 4.7MM caseless. You need a heat and rough handling resistant propellant. Also for long term storage it must be sealed. But I thought it was "neat". Also, it seems that one must "give and take" on desired features for now in regards to the weapons them selves.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Got to hold a 4.7MM caseless. You need a heat and rough handling resistant propellant. Also for long term storage it must be sealed. But I thought it was "neat". Also, it seems that one must "give and take" on desired features for now in regards to the weapons them selves.

Wasn't that round supposed to come in sealed 10 round packs and only opened when the magazine was being loaded? After those brief moments in the sun, the rounds are again protected this time by the magazine body.
Seems they had the potential fragility of the round fairly well covered.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Wasn't that round supposed to come in sealed 10 round packs and only opened when the magazine was being loaded? After those brief moments in the sun, the rounds are again protected this time by the magazine body.
Seems they had the potential fragility of the round fairly well covered.

In the cartridge collector world, one sees more singles, a bag of those would cost quite a bit. If I'd been able to see a bag, I would tell you more.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Wasn't that round supposed to come in sealed 10 round packs and only opened when the magazine was being loaded? After those brief moments in the sun, the rounds are again protected this time by the magazine body.
Seems they had the potential fragility of the round fairly well covered.

Put a carton of eggs in a steel box, then drop the steel box from 1.5m.I

If any egg cracks, your G11 has just malfunctioned.

[Legbreaker]

They aren't exactly eggs though are they. Anything that fragile wouldn't have even cycled and certainly wouldn't have made it into a service rifle like the G11.
Apples and oranges...

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

They aren't exactly eggs though are they. Anything that fragile wouldn't have even cycled and certainly wouldn't have made it into a service rifle like the G11.
Apples and oranges...

Since I don't know how RDX feels, it might have been coated.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Since I don't know how RDX feels, it might have been coated.

Haven't touched the stuff myself since I got out of the army 20+ years ago. Haven't even seen a 4.7mm round in the flesh either, so can't really comment either way.
I can say though that it makes no sense whatsoever for the round to be left untreated in some way and subject to moisture or damage from normal handling and chambering. Yes, it's certain to be less hardy than brass or steel casings, but not to the point of being useless as a military round.