Cost of a Base

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Desert Mariner

Perhaps secrecy isn't the issue we all think it is. Take a look at the sites below and imagine the possibilities of the Project operating in the open.

http://www.terravivos.com/secure/vivosxpoint.htm
https://www.hardenedstructures.com/

Those groups are heavily investigated, and don't have super-futuristic or illegal military equipment. Secrecy is a huge issue.

And as a note on SSBI vs Project investigations, it is worthwhile that there are some hugely important differences. The government is looking for patriots, the Project is actually looking for a special type of traitor. The government can enforce their negative decisions (clearance denials, violations of laws regarding the handling of classified information, etc) with the force of law and an existing legal infrastructure, while the Project needs to get it right close to every time or the main expense of the Project will quickly become "disappearing" people who don't want to join but now know too much. The government can make reasonably accurate estimates of who will betray them based on past performance, the Project needs to take a fantastical hypothetical and find people really willing to abandon everyone and everything to make it real.

It should also be noted that people with higher clearances are tracked, to varying degrees, even after they end the employment that led to those clearances. There are people whose jobs are to know immediately if certain people try to leave the country, or publish anything without prior approval, or are being targeted or recruited by a potential enemy of the country... and EVERY organization is a potential enemy.

You can take some of those people, you probably can't get that many without raising some uncomfortable suspicions, and most of those people would be more likely to report the Project than join it anyway.

[Desert Mariner]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Those groups are heavily investigated, and don't have super-futuristic or illegal military equipment. Secrecy is a huge issue.

I should have clarified, I was referring specifically to construction of boltholes, caches, etc., not stocking said structures.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Those groups are heavily investigated, and don't have super-futuristic or illegal military equipment. Secrecy is a huge issue.

And as a note on SSBI vs Project investigations, it is worthwhile that there are some hugely important differences. The government is looking for patriots, the Project is actually looking for a special type of traitor. The government can enforce their negative decisions (clearance denials, violations of laws regarding the handling of classified information, etc) with the force of law and an existing legal infrastructure, while the Project needs to get it right close to every time or the main expense of the Project will quickly become "disappearing" people who don't want to join but now know too much. The government can make reasonably accurate estimates of who will betray them based on past performance, the Project needs to take a fantastical hypothetical and find people really willing to abandon everyone and everything to make it real.

It should also be noted that people with higher clearances are tracked, to varying degrees, even after they end the employment that led to those clearances. There are people whose jobs are to know immediately if certain people try to leave the country, or publish anything without prior approval, or are being targeted or recruited by a potential enemy of the country... and EVERY organization is a potential enemy.

You can take some of those people, you probably can't get that many without raising some uncomfortable suspicions, and most of those people would be more likely to report the Project than join it anyway.

In 1960 things are very different than in 2018 or even in 1990. In the 1960s there are thousands or tens of thousands of fallout shelters being built all across the USA (and the rest of the world-it is estimated that Switzerland alone has 300,000 shelters). Today if you tell your neighbor you are building a bunker in your back yard you are a loony prepper and possibly get a visit from DHS. In 1963 if you said the same thing they might share their plans and design features and compare notes.

Average Citizens and Companies were ENCOURAGED by the Federal Government to build shelters. There were plans for ones with swimming pool entrances and swimming pool contractors were building them for civilians.

https://aquamagazine.com/builder/whe...-shelters.html



Before 1971 no one in the federal government is really regulating underground construction (https://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3115.html). MSHA only gets mining, not tunneling, except for mineral extraction. (https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/mou/1979-03-29)

If red white and blue American companies are building fallout shelters from 1957-1970 I wonder how much scrutiny they would get from anyone? Who would inspect them? Unless the FBI wants to investigate who would have jurisdiction? The Military doesn't. The department of Labor doesn't have an organ that does this yet. Some States might, but again who would notice or really care? What laws are being broken? It would be hard to tell a group-"hey were are going to investigate you for doing what a Presidential Kennedy told them to do!

From Wikipedia
In November 1961, in Fortune magazine, an article by Gilbert Burck appeared that outlined the plans of Nelson Rockefeller, Edward Teller, Herman Kahn, and Chet Holifield for an In the U.S. in September 1961, under the direction of Steuart L. Pittman, the federal government started the Community Fallout Shelter Program.[3][4] A letter from President Kennedy advising the use of fallout shelters appeared in the September 1961 issue of Life magazine.[5]


In November 1961, in Fortune magazine, an article by Gilbert Burck appeared that outlined the plans of Nelson Rockefeller, Edward Teller, Herman Kahn, and Chet Holifield for an enormous network of concrete lined underground fallout shelters throughout the United States sufficient to shelter millions of people to serve as a refuge in case of nuclear war.[6]


So in the Fortune article a group of wealthy and important people may have planned to build "an enormous network of concrete lined underground fallout shelters throughout the United States"

Between all the efforts to provide fall out shelters who is going to notice that some of these shelters are much bigger than others? That some are far better built than the norm and that they seem to be designed to be upgraded?

Hell an easy way to hide a bolt hole of a cache is to put it UNDER a marked and provisioned fallout shelter. If the war happens the shelter may or may not get used. The occupants may or may not survive (it would be creepy to have a team exit a bolt hole into a shelter filled with skeletons, welcome to the new world team!). But given how many of these things have been "lost" for decades I think it is safe to say that many many of these things have been completely forgotten by the vast majority of people.

A lot depends upon what the project saw as its own timeline. The initial Project may have been nothing but families of "preppers" with associated bomb shelters into which they would enter in case of alert. The holes were designed to be upgraded if or when new technology might advance to fusion and cryo.

Re-provisioning or upgrading a bolt hole or cache is far less obvious then building one. As urban sprawl creeps out some bolt holes and caches will become unavailable for upgrading. These might be abandoned or possibly recovered and placed somewhere else. If they are relocated they might be filled with grout after everything critical has been removed.

There are a number of first principals-
1955-1970 is not 2000+

The entire landscape of regulations and surveillance has changed.

Personal Patriotism and loyalty to the nation changed dramatically in the early 1970s due to Vietnam. Finding volunteers and also keeping secrets would have been far less of an issue before that.

Even for 4th edition if this is the foundation of the Project it may have remained hidden for the entire period.

Hiding things would have been far less of an issue before 1970 then it would be afterwards and it might certainly be impossible today.

[dragoon500ly]

Good Catch!

I had completely forgotten that corporations were taking part in the shelter craze. Certainly gives additional cover for Project activities!

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Good Catch!

I had completely forgotten that corporations were taking part in the shelter craze. Certainly gives additional cover for Project activities!

Thanks!