Time Travelling Bruce

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

A) The decisions I make in this universe are in no way directly linked to the decisions other mes make in other universes.

Every coin flip and die roll is independent and individual events are unpredictable, and yet for a large number of either the aggregate is thoroughly predictable in their diversity. If there are an infinite number of universes then there are an infinite number of yous and I see no reason not to expect a correspondingly infinite number of actions you would take at any given time. And just as rolling a 1 or a 6 on a die may be thoroughly independent, for a large number of rolls I can find a 1 for just about every 6.

Originally Posted by tsofian

B) Who cares that there is no net change in goodness in the Universes? Who can measure such a thing? Who has a point of view that would let them even notice that such a balance exists? Who says that isn't the way things work where all things are balanced out across the entire multiverse?

If you care about the net change of goodness in your own universe, why would you not care about other universes if you knew about them? Especially when the people experiencing that change of goodness are more like you than anyone in your own universe ever could be? And if things balance out... then that proves my point.

Originally Posted by tsofian

C) The Trolley Problem and this variant have no basis in alternative universes or in fact in any reality at all but are thought experiments in ethics. There is absolutely no evidence that it has any relevance to the question of multiple universes.

Yes, it is a thought experiment. Presented as a thought experiment for the reason all thought experiments are presented - to help illustrate a concept that has a bearing on the situation. In this case, the morality of action and inaction with the existence of infinite multiple universes. If you don't like thought experiments, we cannot even have this discussion until someone proves that infinite multiple universes exist.

Originally Posted by tsofian

D) Given your basic premise, I would just sit on my butt and do nothing, satisfied knowing that in a different universe a me has decided to work and have a job, earn a living and have a nice place to live. That is great but the me that does that is still going be pretty unhappy living in a cardboard box wearing old newspapers for shoes. I only experience the universe I exist in, based on my decisions within it. And guess what,the me writing this wants to experience pleasant things, or at least do the right thing.

Some versions of you may do just that. I suspect most people would take a path of personal comfort, rather than either moral excellence or total apathy, but if you think you would personally lean towards apathy... okay.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Every coin flip and die roll is independent and individual events are unpredictable, and yet for a large number of either the aggregate is thoroughly predictable in their diversity. If there are an infinite number of universes then there are an infinite number of yous and I see no reason not to expect a correspondingly infinite number of actions you would take at any given time. And just as rolling a 1 or a 6 on a die may be thoroughly independent, for a large number of rolls I can find a 1 for just about every 6.

Human actions are not random. Your analogy falls apart. If human actions are random and will


If you care about the net change of goodness in your own universe, why would you not care about other universes if you knew about them? Especially when the people experiencing that change of goodness are more like you than anyone in your own universe ever could be? And if things balance out... then that proves my point.

Your original point was that if there are infinite universes than no one would care what happens in their own and what a person does in their own universe doesn't matter. Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. The bottom line is that unless you are a being capable of seeing the big picture who cares? You do your best as a person and move as you choose.






Yes, it is a thought experiment. Presented as a thought experiment for the reason all thought experiments are presented -



to help illustrate a concept that has a bearing on the situation. In this case, the morality of action and inaction with the existence of infinite multiple universes. If you don't like thought experiments, we cannot even have this discussion until someone proves that infinite multiple universes exist.

This thought experiment was not developed to have anything to do with multiple universes and it doesn't. I don't mind thought experiments if they are used within their limits. Your example has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

"A thought experiment is a device with which one performs an intentional, structured process of intellectual deliberation in order to speculate, within a specifiable problem domain, about potential consequents (or antecedents) for a designated antecedent (or consequent)" (Yeates, 2004, p. 150).

I do not agree that your particular thought experiment has anything to do with the "problem domain".



Some versions of you may do just that. I suspect most people would take a path of personal comfort, rather than either moral excellence or total apathy, but if you think you would personally lean towards apathy... okay.

Sign, you know that is not my point. You want to make fun of me and that is fine. Don't use a ploy like reductio ad absurdum if you don't want to be called out on it.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Human actions are not random. Your analogy falls apart. If human actions are random and will

The analogy is not dependent on random events, they are dependent on the existence of a nonuniform distribution of results. The idea of a random element was used to illustrate a range of results including the opposites to the "good" results.

Originally Posted by tsofian

Your original point was that if there are infinite universes than no one would care what happens in their own and what a person does in their own universe doesn't matter. Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. The bottom line is that unless you are a being capable of seeing the big picture who cares? You do your best as a person and move as you choose.

Not that people would not care about what happened in their own, but yes, that one's actions in their own universe do not matter. Because it doesn't. There are infinite more worlds with every possible permutation of results. That child you may or may not saved will be saved in an infinite number of worlds and die horribly in an infinite number of worlds. Your contribution has no uniqueness, there is nothing you are creating or preserving that does not exist simultaneously elsewhere.

As to who cares? Well, in a world with a real Project, where time travel is an inherent part of how you get a bunch of dedicate scientists and soldiers to sacrifice everything... well, I think a lot of people would care. And would be able to see the big picture, since the nature of time travel and the number of universes is key to the whole question of whether or not things can be saved and how. This is some of the most fundamentally important information in the universe of the game, so unless your scientists are the unquestioning kind with no concept of philosophy, it's going to be an issue.

Originally Posted by tsofian

This thought experiment was not developed to have anything to do with multiple universes and it doesn't. I don't mind thought experiments if they are used within their limits. Your example has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

"A thought experiment is a device with which one performs an intentional, structured process of intellectual deliberation in order to speculate, within a specifiable problem domain, about potential consequents (or antecedents) for a designated antecedent (or consequent)" (Yeates, 2004, p. 150).

I do not agree that your particular thought experiment has anything to do with the "problem domain".

Considering that I posed said thought experiment with this specifically in mind, I hope you understand if I disagree.

For every universe where you try your best and succeed, there is another where you try your best and still fail, and another where you watch apathetically from the sidelines, and yet another where you are the villain rather than the hero. Besides which, the sheer number of "you"s in infinite universes means your contribution is mathematically infinitely close to zero. Just like evil villain you.

Originally Posted by tsofian

Sign, you know that is not my point. You want to make fun of me and that is fine. Don't use a ploy like reductio ad absurdum if you don't want to be called out on it.

I have not been making fun of you anywhere here. And reductio ad absurdum is implicit in the situation of infinite universes - the argument is already starting at a literal extreme, pointing out the results of your starting point is not in any way logically invalid. For that matter, reductio ad absurdum isn't logically invalid in general, although specific applications may be.