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#1
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The Kangaroo-type conversions of older tanks might work, but cramming a rifle squad in under NBC protection will be tough. |
#2
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If used properly the Bradley was a good tank killer - i.e. its not made to be used in a stand up toe to toe fight - its an ambush killer with tanks - i.e. the hey they cant see us yet nail them with the TOW and then get the heck out of here kind of tank killer
thats how we used it when we had them in the game - nailed a Russian tank in a small convoy from long distance with the TOW and then went to town with the 25mm on what was left - but there is no way in heck we would have had a chance in heck if the range had been short enough that they spotted us first and engaged first with the main gun and considering in the game you really arent looking for a fight you are more looking to get away and run and avoid a lot of fights its a great vehicle for that - and if the opposition doesnt have anti-tank weapons its actually pretty damn good - unless you run into someone with one of the monster Russian MG's |
#3
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While not 100% accurate this is a funny interpretation of how it evolved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA |
#4
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#5
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Pentagon Wars is an actual full length movie. That is essentially the highlight reel. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/
As stated by many here, the development of the Bradley was a perfect example of a run-away vehicle development program. It tried to be everything for everyone and ended up being "master of none". Despite that the Bradley has had a successful service life and many crew members that I have known over the years liked the vehicle. As far as the TOW goes, it's addition needs to be looked at within the context of the time. There were two attitudes that fed its inclusion. First, (as stated earlier) they wanted as much tank killing firepower as they could fit on the battlefield to be there. The Soviets armored horde just across the inter-German border was not to be taken lightly. Hence, the more ATGMs they could field the better, it did not matter what kind of vehicle it was on. Second, was that in many circles the ATGM was still considered to be the "king of the hill". At the time, reactive and ceramic armors were just being introduced on any scale. However, the impact these armors would have, had not caught up with the thinking entirely. For the previous couple of decades, ATGMs were considered to be the death of tanks. There is a reason why some countries diverted from heavier tank designs in the 60's (AMX-30, Leopard 1). It was thought that the ATGM could kill any tank, hence, it was not worth investing in heavier vehicles. This was also the factor that led to cannon launched ATGMs being developed and rushed into production. Anyway, by the late 70's the reality that ATGMs were no longer dominant had not set in entirely. Therefore, there was great appeal to the idea of mounting TOWs on the Bradley. While my profession has taken me in an different direction. I am a historian by training, with a focus on the Cold War. So it is with a little sadness that I see the Bradley begin it's journey into retirement. While it will continue service well into the future, the first step has been taken. Simply put, it has reached its time. FWIW, I have always loved that Challenge cover. To me, it perfectly captured the feeling of T2K.
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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum |
#6
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I've read that BAE's proposed M113 replacement, the AMPV, is essentially an uparmored Bradley chasis without a turret. Last I heard, it was the submission chosen by the U.S. Army. If that is indeed the case, the Bradley will live on for a long time to come.
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/pro...e-vehicle-ampv Quote:
The Soviets developed canon-launched ATGMs to out-range NATO tank guns.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#7
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It's worth mentioning too that the Soviets generally had a lower level of metallurgical skill & knowledge and couldn't create tank guns to match the pressure allowable by Western manufactured guns.
This meant that for a similar calibre, the Western gun/ammo combinations typically out-ranged the Soviet guns/ammo and had better velocities & penetration too. The Soviet adoption of gun-launched ATGWs was partly to try and match the Western gun ranges and penetration. Out-ranging NATO tank guns might have been a planned feature or a happy bonus but if the Soviets believed that NATO tanks were superior to their own, it was the only way the Soviets would have been able to strike NATO tanks before NATO tanks could bring effective fire on them. |
#8
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The Soviets developed cannon-launched ATGM because, due to poor aiming mechanisms, optics, computers, and stabilization, their long-range gun accuracy sucks.
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#9
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Now my understanding is that some of these were fixed in later versions of the TOW, but not sure. Still to me if it is a dismount who is doing the firing the vehicle is not exposed at all, the range is likely to be much closer, but it is easier for the dismount to get closer. By being closer it also reduces the flight time even is the speed is the same. Last edited by CDAT; 02-13-2019 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Spelling |
#10
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Well looking up stats for it on Wikipedia so take it for what it is worth, early on max range was 3000 meters, updated ones 3750 meters. It also says that it takes 20 seconds to get to max range, now it does not say for what max range but does talk about making it faster so maybe both? Either way it is faster than I was lead to believe, but it also talks about how the actual penetration was less than expected from testing Original supposed to 600mm actual 430mm, improved 7-800mm actual 630mm.
This does not really change my opinion above, but thought should share the updated information that I found for clarity. |
#11
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Interesting fact: gen 1 TOW had the same penetration as the Shillelagh ATGM.
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THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS. |
#12
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Shillelagh was the most destructive missile in US stocks until Hellfire was introduced |
#13
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And speaking of the Shillelagh...
Interesting fact #2 The Australian Army acquired one or two examples (depending on what source you read) of the M551 Sheridan (as well as one example of the M114) for testing as a possible recce vehicle. If the Sheridan had proved successful we would have apparently been getting the missile as well. That would have made Australia the only other nation to operate the vehicle. However it proved unsuitable for some of the Australian requirement (as did the M114). |
#14
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On the plus side, ANY vehicle that exposes itself is dead generally, and the Bradley is certainly no exception. Firing the TOW should absolutely be done from a hull down position, and of the equipment allowed (which in this case I don't think it does) a turret down position.
the Bradley turret is relatively small and does make for a significantly difficult target at longer ranges, particular while under fire from not just one missile, but likely two or more simultaneously (it's SOP with most armies to always fire missiles/rockets/recoilless rifles in pairs from two positions). Also, as has been mentioned, the Bradley should not try to go toe to toe with another AFV - it WILL loose. It has to work as part of a team with other vehicles or infantry providing a distraction to the target. Infantry for example could use small arms and machineguns to force the tank to button up thereby making it much more difficult for them to detect the incoming missile(s). Used correctly it's my belief the Bradley was suitable for the task. It's those who look at it's heavy armour (compared to contemporary APCs and IFVs), and TOW launcher, and try to use it outside it's intended role that have given it the bad reputation. As a battle taxi with good defensive/ambush firepower it's real failing in my opinion was the reduced troop capacity. Other than that.....
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#15
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It's also been getting harder to maintain the Bradleys as parts go obsolete. The gunner's sight for the TOW uses some incredibly old-tech wafers for the IR sensor that AFAIK only one company still has dies for (I used to be the buyer for the wafers for a company that made the launcher electronics and some other systems). We actually had a Bradley that the government permanently loaned us in order to test any changes that we wanted to make to the stuff we made.
I think the inclusion of the TOW launcher stemmed from a Cold-War-Goes-Hot-In-Europe mentality. NATO wouldn't have as many tanks as the Pact, but cramming anti-tank weapons onto everything gave lighter units a chance to ambush and knock out heavier vehicles. It was the equivalent of cramming a 75mm gun onto the M24 Chaffee (with its maximum of 38mm of armor) - you hope you don't run into anything that needs that kind of firepower, but you carry it along because it's better to have and not need than to need and not have. Quote:
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