America after the Thanksgiving Massacre

[Legbreaker]

Why should they? As shown in most of the rumour tables there's all sorts of false and half truths out there. Take a look at Red Star, Lone Star for a specific example - the PCs had heard Texas had been invaded by Soviets and the state had broken away, but the idea was dismissed as too unbelievable.
Ruins of Warsaw introduces the PCs to the first indication all is not well at home with the CIA agent and his loyalty oaths. No real explanation given about them though.

So why should PCs have more information about the world beyond their immediate line of sight than anyone else? Communications have effectively broken down as evidenced by the slow spread of the Omega orders in Going Home. XI Corps didn't even have coms with some of it's own elements, so why should news from home be known by those outside the upper ranks and a handful of signallers (who've probably been ordered to stay quiet to avoid "issues" amongst the soldiers)?

[bash]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So why should PCs have more information about the world beyond their immediate line of sight than anyone else? Communications have effectively broken down as evidenced by the slow spread of the Omega orders in Going Home.

According to the 1996 CIA World FactBook (mirror) the US had nearly 5,000 FM and AM radio stations and over 500 million receivers. According to a copy of an old Usenet post the US also had over 600,000 licensed hams (about 3 per 1k population). There were also thousands of RadioShack stores in the US in the 90s. Every long haul truck was also likely to have a CB radio. This is a long way of saying the US is/was lousy with radios. Even if you want to assume the TDM EMPs destroyed some ridiculously large percentage of electronics there's still many tens of millions of functional radios and salvageable bits of gear. It does not take huge infrastructure to conduct long range communications via radio.

Every ham and electronics geek would have broken out (or fixed) their radios as soon as the dust settled after TDM. They would be crucial for local governments to communicate with neighbors and state governments with telephone systems down. Governments of any size would want to get broadcast radio stations back online. There would be millions of radios in people's hands, many battery powered, for those governments to broadcast emergency information and civil defense type pieces.

This is all in addition to more primitive muscle powered couriers. Mail service would be another vital government function, even if it was just passing coordination messages between local governments or groups in power. Who delivers the mail would likely be who you paid your apocalypse taxes to, either MilGov or CivGov. Part of governing a region is maintaining lines of communication in that region.

Between millions of radios and bike/horse/foot couriers and/or mail carriers, only the most remote or inaccessible parts of the country wouldn't know about MilGov and CivGov. Both would put effort into propaga...advertising campaigns to make the case for their legitimacy and loyalty to them.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I would think that for US forces in Europe, they would be unlikely to know much about the MilGov/CivGov split because the flow of information would be strictly controlled by the military heirachy. Those personnel in HQ and signals units that might hear about it would probably filter the information to support their own beliefs, meaning that even if higher HQ wanted the news to get out, some junior officer/NCO/OR might not pass it on because they disagree with it. Or the reverse could be the situation, HQ doesn't want it to get out but somebody believes the troops should know.

But I also think that once they return to the USA they would learn about it. Maybe not quickly, but sooner or later they would hear talk or even be direcly approached by people wishing to know where they stand on the issue or directly courting them to one side or another.

I can imagine both sides playing the 'political campaign' game to woo people to their side and using various methods to let people know who to throw their support behind. It may not be 'representatives' travelling the campaign trail but all the other methods of advertising their positions/claims etc. etc. would be used.

[Raellus]

Bash raises some really good points, considering the situation in CONUS, and I tend to agree with SSC's assessment of the military. Not having served, I don't have first-hand experience, but a governmental schism seems like news that would spread quickly through the institutional rumor mill. I can't see the military hierarchy being able to contain news of that magnitude indefinitely. Not that it would be common knowledge among the lower ranks, but I imagine that the knowledge would be pretty widespread scuttlebutt in the ETO by Y2K.

IIRC, there were a couple of shiploads of troops deployed to Europe after the schism. If that was indeed the case, I don't see how as how the troops on board those ships could be prevented, in practice, from sharing the big news with the troops already deployed in the ETO. Word would eventually spread.

Oh, and I just though of WTO propaganda! Someone like a "Moscow Molly", for example, taunting U.S. troops in the ETO with news of the US government split (see the post title). Yeah, so even if the US military could keep the news from the rank and file- a premise that I find somewhat doubtful- the Soviets would loudly spill the beans to sap American and NATO morale (via radio broadcasts, fliers, released POWs, etc.).

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that, by 2000, the split would more or less be common knowledge anywhere in the world that significant bodies of U.S. troops are present.

[pmulcahy11b]

I agree with Stainless, except that I think troops returning to CONUS would find out about the split rather quickly, and possibly be aggressively be recruited or poached by both sides.

[bash]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I agree with Stainless, except that I think troops returning to CONUS would find out about the split rather quickly, and possibly be aggressively be recruited or poached by both sides.

The way I've always read Howling Wilderness (and the other books) is troops returning to CONUS were largely aboard military/military contracted ships and landing in military controlled ports. This to me says MilGov. While troops would definitely hear about the split, it would likely be from the MilGov perspective/narrative. Troops joining up with CivGov after their return to CONUS would be marked as deserters by the military and MilGov.

Another point I think is interesting is both governments are going to bill themselves as "The United States Government". We use terms from the books but people in the T2K universe probably wouldn't. Well, CivGov might call MilGov...MilGov as a negative connotation for propaganda purposes. So when troops do get back to CONUS they're going to be presented with two groups calling themselves the USG.

Thinking about that, maybe troops and civilians would refer to the governments by their respective capitals, Colorado Springs and Omaha. Civilians would probably refer to their chosen side as the USG and the other side as something derisive.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That's a very good point bash, one that I'm definitely guilty of. Both sides would be claiming to be the legitimate US Government and wouldn't be using the labels we use to describe themselves.
I do like the idea of the military calling the civilians "CivGov" as an easy reference but also as a point of disdain. I don't doubt that the civilian government would have similar labels but I don't think "MilGov" would carry the same level of disdain or negativity. I'm inclined to think that they would call the military government something along the lines of rogue elements (or something of that nature) to reinforce their rejection of the military claim to leadership.

[guncrazy]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I would think that for US forces in Europe, they would be unlikely to know much about the MilGov/CivGov split because the flow of information would be strictly controlled by the military heirachy. Those personnel in HQ and signals units that might hear about it would probably filter the information to support their own beliefs, meaning that even if higher HQ wanted the news to get out, some junior officer/NCO/OR might not pass it on because they disagree with it. Or the reverse could be the situation, HQ doesn't want it to get out but somebody believes the troops should know.

But I also think that once they return to the USA they would learn about it. Maybe not quickly, but sooner or later they would hear talk or even be direcly approached by people wishing to know where they stand on the issue or directly courting them to one side or another.

I can imagine both sides playing the 'political campaign' game to woo people to their side and using various methods to let people know who to throw their support behind. It may not be 'representatives' travelling the campaign trail but all the other methods of advertising their positions/claims etc. etc. would be used.

Yes this was my thought as well, the PCs have been back in the US for about 5 months since before our campaign began, I figured by then they would have knowledge of the split especially since one of the PCs was directly under MilGov command until she deserted. Again this is also a slightly modified timeline where not only Russia but China and NK also declared war against the US. Also the PCs are currently in New Mexico at the ONLY CivGov enclave in the remnants of a semi major city (forgive my lack of southwest knowledge). I thought this would be a good point to begin the bigger picture "quests". The PCs have left this rundown dying town by effectlive fighting off a rogue army brigade with the cities help only to be kicked out because they were blamed for the attack in the first place lol.

So now they reached this city with actual electricity but limited water supply. I have also been using NPCs to relay bits of information on the two governments.