The ANZACs in T2k

[Olefin]

FYI found some information on the Indonesian Air Force that you could use for the backstory on the Indonesian Australian conflict

In 1995/1996 they had the following aircraft:

Two squadrons of A-4E Skyhawks, one squadron of F-5E Tiger II, one squadron of F-16 and one squadron of OV-10F Bronco's. In addition they had five transport squadrons that were equipped with C-130 Hercules, CASANC-212 Aviocar, CN-235 and F-27's. They also had three Boeing 737's that were used for surveillance/transport. There were also assorted other aircraft that were in transport, helicopter and training units including 15 Hawks, 15 T-34C armed trainers and 36 AS 202 primary trainers

Will see if I can find more details for you but you could see a few surviving aircraft possibly here and there - especially the older aircraft that were easier to maintain

[Legbreaker]

Found a useful site about a week ago.
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-6168.html
It's not perfect, but it's about the best I've found to date.
It's actually got most of the countries of the world in there, except it would seem close allies of the US and it's all from the early 1990's. http://www.country-data.com

[Olefin]

I recommend The Statesman's Yearbook - they have them for every year - you can get older copies online, on google books or they are for sale - lots of info on there about every country including their military - very useful books

Example is the 1993-1994 book on google books -

https://books.google.com/books?id=44...page&q&f=false

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I recommend The Statesman's Yearbook - they have them for every year - you can get older copies online, on google books or they are for sale - lots of info on there about every country including their military - very useful books

Example is the 1993-1994 book on google books -

https://books.google.com/books?id=44...page&q&f=false

Is there also for 1982 as i would like to know due to my ongoing Falklands timeline as i would like to know what Argentina and the UK had if that is in the book.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I recommend The Statesman's Yearbook - they have them for every year - you can get older copies online, on google books or they are for sale - lots of info on there about every country including their military - very useful books

Example is the 1993-1994 book on google books -

https://books.google.com/books?id=44...page&q&f=false

Those yearbooks are a great resource. Nice find Olefin, I'd never heard of them before and sadly, in my little part of Australia, lack of knowledge of certain books is far too common. So thanks muchly for letting us know about them.

EDIT: I've just discovered that some of them are available on the internet archive, mostly from the very late 19th century and early 20th century but there are two from the later part of the 20th century.

The one for 1988-89 can be found here https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...00945/page/n11

And this one for 1970-71 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...126738/page/n3

And another EDIT: If you want to join the site, you can download or read online some of the Year-books, including 1980-81 and 1981-82 versions
https://newbooksinpolitics.com/polit...ook-1980-1981/

[Olefin]

Thank you - glad to have been of help

FYI this is the link for the 1995-1996 book - which is about as close as you get to the real timeline start - keep in mind of course the military's it will show are after the drawdown after the Cold War had ended - the link takes you right to Mexico FYI

https://books.google.com/books?id=YK...201995&f=false

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Leg, did you ever look at the Aus. Bureau of Statistics for info? I ask because I have only just found their downloads page for their yearbooks of the state of the nation.
While the docs give overviews, projects and stats such as total number of personnel, they don't go into any finer detail so they may not be that helpful?

This is the page for the 1990 yearbook
https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@...0?OpenDocument

And the specific pdf for the section on Defence
https://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/free.nsf/0/EA1A5CACAA16D17BCA25739C0008D1E6/$File/13010_1990_chapter4.pdf

I found it wasn't to much mucking about to get the various years by using "year book Australia 1990" in the search box (or whatever other year you wanted to check) so for example, here's the downloads page for 1995
https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@...5?OpenDocument

[Legbreaker]

I can't recall if I went there, but I do have most of that information I believe.
Second source is always good though!

Found a couple of useful items recently. Problem is they've opened a bit of a Pandora's box!

Attachment 4230

Attachment 4231

[Olefin]

Given that the war breaks out before the reduction of the Australian Army would the 8th/9th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment still be around? If so would you have them be the battalion based in Papua New Guinea when the war breaks out there - if I remember right didnt they have the task of training their armed forces?

[cawest]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Given that the war breaks out before the reduction of the Australian Army would the 8th/9th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment still be around? If so would you have them be the battalion based in Papua New Guinea when the war breaks out there - if I remember right didnt they have the task of training their armed forces?

also what about local made armored "cars" to support the fighting in the local area. I do not think they can make there own tanks, but rebuilding old ones might be do able.

RL they started building the ASLAV in 95 but the design was from 92. maybe Bushmaster protected mobility vehicle?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well we actually do have some minor experience building tanks - in WW2. The Sentinel medium tank was designed and built in Australia when it looked like our supply of armoured vehicles from Great Britain was in jeopardy. It was a good vehicle comparing favourably with contemporary British & American designs (although with a poor turret layout for the crew) but rendered unnecessary by the availability of mass supply of tanks from the USA.
Plus there was local manufacture of Australian variants of the Universal Carrier as well as a local design, the Dingo armoured car and some armoured truck modifications.

Another item that sparked some interest with the T2k alternate timeline of Merc: 2000, an Australian company acquired the rights to the Shorland armoured car. This was in 1996 so not particularly useful for T2k timelines.
Plus we designed and implemented an upgrade for the M113 vehicles in service (to AS4 standard).

So all in all, we have the industry and the technical skills to build armoured vehicles including tanks but there is no "national need" for us to build certain vehicles e.g. tanks.
Obviously for T2k everything depends on the timeline being used but I would expect that (considering we had a Land Rover production facility in Australia for several decades supplying vehicles to the military), we would probably look at some sort of armoured car variant of the Landie at the very least. I don't think national need would extend to tanks but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

EDIT: meant to also mention that the ASLAV design is based on the Canadian LAV design which in turn was based on the Swiss MOWAG Piranha vehicle. The Piranha in 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8 configurations has been available since the 1970s so if you tweaked the details, we could have acquired some sort of ASLAV in the 1980s.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Another item that sparked some interest with the T2k alternate timeline of Merc: 2000, an Australian company acquired the rights to the Shorland armoured car. This was in 1996 so not particularly useful for T2k timelines.

Doesn't the Twilight War not start in 1996?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As I recall it, Shorts sold the rights to the Shorland because they didn't see a market any longer for the vehicle in Europe (peace dividend etc. etc.) I imagine that in a T2k world, they would not sell the rights - tensions rising before '96, talk of war and so on, I tend to think they would not even be looking to sell.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, late in 96. I'd imagine the previous owners of the rights would be loathe to give them up though with a possible conflict about to kick off. There were plenty of warning signs leading up to Germany stepping over the border.


..again...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Given that the war breaks out before the reduction of the Australian Army would the 8th/9th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment still be around? If so would you have them be the battalion based in Papua New Guinea when the war breaks out there - if I remember right didn't they have the task of training their armed forces?

There will be three Divisions in the year 2000 (as there was up until the early 90's), with units delinked as the military is brought up to strength. Therefore 8/9 RAR won't exist as such, but 8 RAR and 9 RAR will.

Note that the PNG military is a joke consisting of a total of approximately 1,000 personnel covering air, land and naval responsibilities. Most training beyond the most basic is carried out in Australia. IRL there are about thirty Australian instructors and observers in PNG. However in September 2018 it was revealed that plans were being made "for short-term troop deployments" to PNG although there were no further details at the time although the implication was it would be little more than Company strength.

[Legbreaker]

https://youtu.be/ppIRy9Aj5WM
Conditions haven't changed much since then. Helicopters and a few more rough air strips make travel a little easier, but as fuel and spare parts run out (as happens in the rest of the T2K world)...

[Raellus]

Just thumbed through my copy of Osprey's Men-at-Arms series, Australian Army At War, 1976-2016 and my first impression is quite favorable. Its text covers various peace-keeping deployments and Australia's contributions to the ongoing 'War on Terror'.

From a photo caption, I learned that an under-barrel grenade launcher for the F88 wasn't procured until the early 2000s, so Digger grenadiers deployed to East Timor were equipped with M79 GLs.

Anyway, if you have any interest in the modern Australian army, I recommend that you pick up a copy straightaway.

-

[Legbreaker]

Written with the help of the defence media unit I'm guessing?
My research to date has shown the Australian military was in a shocking state through the 70's and 80's and IRL only started to turn around in the mid 90's.

The M203 was in service but only in regular army infantry units prior to the introduction of the F88. As the regular units received the new rifle, they handed the M16/M203's over to reserve units, and the regs pulled M79's out of storage.
Personally, having used both, I prefer the 203 to carry, but the 79 to fire. I could drop a grenade through a small window at 300+ metres with the 79, but be lucky to hit the same grid square with the 203.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There were some Reserve units with M203s but they weren't Infantry.
10th Light Horse in Western Australia had 203s before the introduction of the F88, I don't know when they took them on strength but I saw them myself during the 80s and early 90s.
It was a source of annoyance because those of us in Infantry units in WA couldn't get them for love nor money but 10 little ponies had 'em!**





** To be fair, 10LH was not a large unit, they were a single Armoured Recce Squadron and typically understrength. So it's not like they had dozens of them, I'd take a rough guess that they probably never had more than about a dozen 203s in total.
Still... they had them, we didn't - of course we were envious!

As for 203 versus 79, my accuracy was "okay" with the 203, I could generally get rounds on target but I was never as quick with it as I was with the 79.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

There were some Reserve units with M203s but they weren't Infantry.

Well, I was in one of those infantry reserve units with M203's. I think they were 1RAR's (could have been 2) and we got all their M16's and M203's when they converted to the F88.
A couple of years later and we got the F88 but kept the M16's and 203's. Don't know what happened much after that as I went Reg about 3 months later.

[Legbreaker]

I've decided I'm going to drop some nukes on Indonesia around October-November 1997. As the fourth largest oil producer on the planet, and located on a very important shipping route, it just makes sense to deny those resources from the "enemy".
Don't think I'll state who actually did it though - just leave it up in the air. There's a case to be made for either side actually. The US could do it in order to help out the Anzac forces slow the Indonesian advance, and given I've decided Indonesia has also turned communist again in the T2K universe...
On the other hand, the Soviets could have done is as traditionally much of Indonesian oil and mineral exports has gone to the US. It's not like the Soviets will be able to take advantage of the resources themselves either given there's a LOT of hostile ground and forces in between the two areas.

Sound reasonable?

[Olefin]

Given the fact that the Soviets attacked refineries throughout France, South and Central America and Africa and the US hit ones supporting the Soviets then it would make sense that at least some of the big refineries would be hit if not all of them

The question with the nukes would be are they purely going after oil refineries - ie. oil denial - or are they supporting Australia and going after naval bases and air bases as well

[Legbreaker]

Indonesia doesn't have a lot of refining capacity - they export crude for the most part, with a sizeable percentage going to the US for refining.

As for the rest, I don't want to go into too much detail. Indonesia and it's immediate neighbours really deserves their own book! Essentially I'm still looking for reasons for the Indos to invade PNG and how to prevent them simply rolling over the defenders (which they outnumber about 10 to 1).

[Olefin]

well then a perfect target would be the export terminals - in the East Africa book the Soviets destroyed the Nigerian oil terminals to prevent them exporting oil - similar thing could happen to Indonesia

as to why they go to war - the Indonesians arent looking for total war - they think the Australians will just roll over and allow Papua to be taken - and they find out its not that simple - and they dont have the ability to project enough power to make the 10 to 1 advantage really mean anything - especially since they are dealing with the after effects of the nuke attacks on them - and you could easily have the other half of New Guinea rise against the Indonesians as well -that would keep them very busy indeed and prevent them bringing their full power to bear

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well, I was in one of those infantry reserve units with M203's. I think they were 1RAR's (could have been 2) and we got all their M16's and M203's when they converted to the F88.
A couple of years later and we got the F88 but kept the M16's and 203's. Don't know what happened much after that as I went Reg about 3 months later.

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough. Specifically, there were some non-Infantry Reserve units that had the M16/M203 before the F88 was in service.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

well then a perfect target would be the export terminals - in the East Africa book the Soviets destroyed the Nigerian oil terminals to prevent them exporting oil - similar thing could happen to Indonesia

as to why they go to war - the Indonesians arent looking for total war - they think the Australians will just roll over and allow Papua to be taken - and they find out its not that simple - and they dont have the ability to project enough power to make the 10 to 1 advantage really mean anything - especially since they are dealing with the after effects of the nuke attacks on them - and you could easily have the other half of New Guinea rise against the Indonesians as well -that would keep them very busy indeed and prevent them bringing their full power to bear

It's worth remembering too that Indonesia is a nation of islands, they need airports and seaports (they have been particularly reliant on seaports for most of their foreign trade throughout history). For any military action they'll need those ports, so putting them out of action would be important to restrict their ability to fight. That is to say, I don't think you need to have the oil terminals as the sole reason to drop some bombs on them (even a few nukes).

[Legbreaker]

The exactly location of the strikes I think I'll leave vague and just say they took out their production and transport capacity. A future Indonesian/SE Asia book, or individual GMs can go into more depth later if needed.

[Olefin]

One way to cause the Indonesians a lot of issues would be having Australian and perhaps US Special Forces assist the West Papuans in their guerrilla war against Indonesia - even to a full scale uprising - pretty hard to put your full war effort against Australia if your ports and base areas and transport network are under full scale guerrilla attack

"Why arent you attacking?" "Sir, the guerrillas just ambushed our fuel convoy and we have no fuel at all"

Or a variation on the movie The Patriot - having the Indonesian general look out the window of the officers club as the two ships bringing in his supplies get blown up by West Papuan guerrillas "helped" by Australian commandos

[Legbreaker]

Given the state of the PNG military forces in the 1990's, that little raiding party would probably have consisted of about 95% Australians....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's also a good possibility that the British may send special operations troops to assist Australia in PNG considering that the south eastern region had been a British colonial possession since 1884 plus the fact that since 1975 PNG has been part of the (British) Commonwealth of Nations.