Your thoughts on the (cannon) Presidential line of succession?

[Legbreaker]

...a long weekend during the second year of a global war that just keeps getting bigger. Pretty sure not that many in positions of authority are getting many days off...

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

...a long weekend during the second year of a global war that just keeps getting bigger. Pretty sure not that many in positions of authority are getting many days off...

What would make sense except that there people working at

Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center
Raven Rock Mountain Complex (RRMC)
Presidential Emergency Facilities
Cheyenne Mountain Complex
Olney Federal Support Center
The National Warning System (NAWAS)
Post Attack Command and Control System (PACCS)
Worldwide Military Command and Control System

So there people working but not in Washington, Congress and Pres and VP are are still elected officials and still duties to do outside of Washington. And with the threat of nuclear war why keep all your eggs in one basket.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

What would make sense except that there people working at

Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center
Raven Rock Mountain Complex (RRMC)
Presidential Emergency Facilities
Cheyenne Mountain Complex
Olney Federal Support Center
The National Warning System (NAWAS)
Post Attack Command and Control System (PACCS)
Worldwide Military Command and Control System

So there people working but not in Washington, Congress and Pres and VP are are still elected officials and still duties to do outside of Washington. And with the threat of nuclear war why keep all your eggs in one basket.

I think that government would be reasonably well distributed. There are questions of course as to how good communications, lines of supply and infrastructure could be maintained. I've found sources on this point to be contradictory, forcing the GM to choose what he finds most interesting and consistent. Since this is about the succession, though, I'll try to come back to the point.

I found this site has a very good idea.

1. The Speaker of the House is appointed President after the deaths of the President and the Vice-President. (You don't even need to explain this to nitpickers, you simply have to have a devastating nuclear attack and have them go incommunicado. In the novel/film this campaign apppears to be partly based on, the Mt. Weather shelter gets hit, as I recall, and the President's plane takes a hit and goes down as well)

2. The Speaker decides to appoint the Director of the CIA as his Vice-President as per the Tom Clancy series, which I found a fun idea. It doesn't matter if this is actually what happens, all that is necessary is for the appointment to not be able to be ratified by Congress, due to a nuclear war.

3. Now, on the site I linked, it follows the same canon exactly with name changes; a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs refuses to recognize the appointment.

I thought it would be interesting if instead of #3, there is another surviving member of the government in the order of succession, doesn't matter who, who gets backed by enough of the military to form something like Milgov. It could, for instance, be a Cabinet Secretary, President Pro Tem of the Senate, etc. I think, however, that this would be downright confusing, even maddening, to many people who just want the government to get on with it. Which is part of why I like it.

[Olefin]

The big issue in general with the line of succession in the game is that the Speaker of the House would not have been allowed to be incommunicado like that in time of war. The US military has communications designed to survive under nuclear attack - they would have had people with him at all times. Or they would have immediately moved to number four on the list - especially with the country under nuclear attack. Any lack of ability to communicate with him and he would have been assumed lost and right down the list they go.

The game in general has the US military and govt act in ways that would never happen in real life - and the succession issues in the game definitely DO NOT dovetail with actual procedures.

in other words the head of the Senate would have been made president and Munson would have missed his opportunity - if you go by real world figures Trent Lott gets sworn in as President (he was the majority leader of the Senate in 1997 IRL)

[Legbreaker]

May not have been by choice. Could be the speaker was out of touch because to the impact EMP had to the available communications. Could well have been greater than expected - we already know certain elements of real world physics have been slightly altered by GDW (such as radiation half life), no reason this should be any different.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

May not have been by choice. Could be the speaker was out of touch because to the impact EMP had to the available communications. Could well have been greater than expected - we already know certain elements of real world physics have been slightly altered by GDW (such as radiation half life), no reason this should be any different.

US military communications are built to survive exactly the kind of EMP effects that T2K shows - in fact they are built to handle worse than that. The Soviets never used an EMP specific bomb - i.e. high altitude bursts - to burn out the electronics - the effects were strictly localized. Also keep in mind that in 1997 most of the country still had good old fashioned hard lines not cell phones.

And one big reason the communications are that good is that the guys in the launch centers have orders to launch the missiles on their own if they lose communications. Once that timer goes to zero they own the birds. And the game definitely doesnt have the launch control centers salvoing every missile they had - i.e. they maintained communications even during the TDM and only launched as directed - thats why the damage was as limited as it was - i.e. neither side launched a general nuclear attack.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

US military communications are built to survive exactly the kind of EMP effects that T2K shows - in fact they are built to handle worse than that.

Yes, I'm aware of that and believe I've referred to it in my earlier post.
However, just because it was built to cope with what was expected doesn't mean it actually performed that well. Could be the various assumptions made did not meet the "reality" of T2K and it's slightly altered real world physics. Could be there was a fault in a critical element of the system which turned out to be fatal. Could be a cyber attack disabled it in the minutes before the strikes. Could be any number of factors, real or fictional (as far as OUR reality goes).

Really, it doesn't matter WHAT the reason was. All that matters is the system failed in some manner and the Speaker was out of contact. It may well be that the inhabitants of the T2K universe never find out what went wrong. It may remain a mystery to all (and perhaps a story hook to potentially expand on at some point). Could be that generations to come look upon that failure as many now do with the Kennedy assassination or moon landing.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Olefin

The big issue in general with the line of succession in the game is that the Speaker of the House would not have been allowed to be incommunicado like that in time of war. The US military has communications designed to survive under nuclear attack - they would have had people with him at all times. Or they would have immediately moved to number four on the list - especially with the country under nuclear attack. Any lack of ability to communicate with him and he would have been assumed lost and right down the list they go.

The game in general has the US military and govt act in ways that would never happen in real life - and the succession issues in the game definitely DO NOT dovetail with actual procedures.

in other words the head of the Senate would have been made president and Munson would have missed his opportunity - if you go by real world figures Trent Lott gets sworn in as President (he was the majority leader of the Senate in 1997 IRL)

As I said, I have always taken the canon as a model, as have others. Its neat, but, as you say, it has flaws, not the least of which were the greater challenges of doing research in pre internet days.

Anyway, it's easily fixed. First, have the Vice-President killed by other means. Heart attack, or shelter they were taken to is nuked, etc. Or even the VP does survive. The main point is: how do you create an interesting succession crisis?

Some gms will not want one. Others will like it. I'm on the fence about it at the moment as I'm planning my campaign.

[comped]

Originally Posted by Enfield

As I said, I have always taken the canon as a model, as have others. Its neat, but, as you say, it has flaws, not the least of which were the greater challenges of doing research in pre internet days.

Anyway, it's easily fixed. First, have the Vice-President killed by other means. Heart attack, or shelter they were taken to is nuked, etc. Or even the VP does survive. The main point is: how do you create an interesting succession crisis?

Some gms will not want one. Others will like it. I'm on the fence about it at the moment as I'm planning my campaign.

Personally, I do agree that it's not the most realistic - and its why if I ever run a game, I'm going to be working on it a bit - particularly because of all the info that has come out since the 90's in a book like Raven Rock, that shows how exactly something like this would have went down, in terms of succession - it's seriously an excellent book. Though its bit of SCOTUS leaves a bit to be desired... Actually, I don't think the Supreme Court is mentioned once in the books - though it's been years since I've truly read them.

Also dear lord - over 6 years since I posted that and this convo is still going strong.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well...it's a bit controversial, but I don't think that post-Twilight War, there is actually anyone who can claim to be the legitimate government of the US. Certainly not CivGov, with no quorum, little communications with most of the US or its forces, and gunfights on the House floor. Not MilGov, which pretty much smacks of a military coup and someone yelling "We've got all the toys, it's us or no one!"

So pick your side. You just have to decide for yourself who to stand with right now. Feel free to change sides if necessary. My choice is MilGov since I'm career Army, but right now, both sides are illegitimate/equally legitimate, in my mind.