The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Although the following site is Brazilian so the language is Brazilian Portuguese, there's a lot of useful images for the F-18L including some data sheets for those inclined to do the stats.
https://www.cavok.com.br/blog/a-vers...t-da-northrop/

[Vespers War]

Speaking of the Canadian New Fighter Aircraft, it's worth noting that before the "Canadian Caper" in Iran (popularized in Argo), Canada was in negotiations to acquire Iran's F-14 Tomcats as their replacement for the Voodoo and Starfighter. It would take only a very mild historical tweak for Canada to be flying Tomcats in the 1980s and 90s.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

Speaking of the Canadian New Fighter Aircraft, it's worth noting that before the "Canadian Caper" in Iran (popularized in Argo), Canada was in negotiations to acquire Iran's F-14 Tomcats as their replacement for the Voodoo and Starfighter. It would take only a very mild historical tweak for Canada to be flying Tomcats in the 1980s and 90s.

Very interesting! Are there any websites - in preference to books - that go into any detail about this ? (I'm interested in reading more about this but not so interested in laying out money for a book that may have only a few paragraphs on the subject!)

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Very interesting! Are there any websites - in preference to books - that go into any detail about this ? (I'm interested in reading more about this but not so interested in laying out money for a book that may have only a few paragraphs on the subject!)

Tacairnet has a small piece about the CF-14-Eh.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

Tacairnet has a small piece about the CF-14-Eh.

Very interesting indeed, thanks for the link.
And to think the Canadians practically had it all in the bag until the Iranians found out about the "Caper".
Would have made a very different Cold War landscape in North America if the Canadians were flying Tomcats but I'm left to wonder how they would have made nice with Grumman (I'm presuming Grumman would have remained unhappy with the Canadian's lower cost purchase and also that Canada would eventually have to get new spares etc. etc. from Grumman at some point in time).

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Very interesting indeed, thanks for the link.
And to think the Canadians practically had it all in the bag until the Iranians found out about the "Caper".
Would have made a very different Cold War landscape in North America if the Canadians were flying Tomcats but I'm left to wonder how they would have made nice with Grumman (I'm presuming Grumman would have remained unhappy with the Canadian's lower cost purchase and also that Canada would eventually have to get new spares etc. etc. from Grumman at some point in time).

In a non-Twilight scenario, it also makes me wonder if the Canadian use of the Tomcat would have prevented Cheney from having the tooling scrapped in the early 90s and left an updated Tomcat as a potential candidate for the fleet defense role on US carriers instead of the Super Hornet. The longer-ranged AMRAAM makes the Phoenix mostly obsolete, but the F-14's track-while-scan capability is (to the best of my knowledge) still unmatched by carrier-capable aircraft.

[Vespers War]

Here's one that's more forgotten than never was.

In 1923, Poland started a competition for a new light machinegun. The next year, the Ministry of War purchased a dozen each of the Benet-Mercie, Lewis, and the eventual winner, the BAR. Guns were bought from Belgium starting in 1927, chambered in 7.92mm Mauser instead of .30-06, to the tune of 10,000. License production in Poland then began, and another 14,000 were built before 1939. They saw use not just with the Polish Army (and partisans during WW2), but captured units were used by both the Soviets and the Germans, and earlier some had been shipped to the Spanish Republic, Greece, China, and Palestine.

Wt 5.9 kg, ROF 5, Dam 4, Pen 2-3-Nil, Blk 7, Mag 20, SS 4, Brst 9, Rng 93.

Compared to the original M1918, a little bit of weight has been shaved off and the burst recoil has increased from 8 to 9 as a result, while an extra 10 meters of short range has been added (due to a longer barrel). The Polish BAR also had a pistol grip. While produced in decent numbers, it's been overshadowed by the far more common American BAR.

[Vespers War]

An 18th-century best that never was is the infamous Puckle Gun. An early manual repeater, it was a 32mm smoothbore black powder revolver mounted on a tripod with a 3 foot barrel. It has a nine-shot cylinder. A crank at the rear cams a cylinder to or from the breech, and when cammed back the cylinder can be manually rotated. A flintlock fire mechanism at the top of the frame will drop sparks into a priming pan and fire the top-most chamber. Rotating the crank all the way back allows the cylinder to be removed and replaced. A single shot can be fired per 5-second round, and replacing a cylinder requires three rounds, so a cylinder can be fired and replaced in one minute for an average rate of fire of 9 rounds per minute.

A grand total of two Puckle Guns were purchased for an expedition to the West Indies. The expedition was a failure and it's not known if the Puckle Guns were ever fired in anger.

Puckle Gun (3.2 cm L/28)
Gun Weight: 40 kg
Tripod Weight: 10 kg
SAR, Mag 9, Rld 3, Bulk 8, SS 2, Rng 90 (SS and Rng include tripod bonus)

Shot: Dam: 7 Pen: 2-Nil
Canister: B: 45 Dam 2/1 Pen: 1-Nil

Each loaded cylinder is approximately 5 kilograms. Loading a single chamber takes 2 actions, so it requires 18 actions to fully reload a cylinder. Three cylinders and a crew of 3 (1 gunner, 2 loaders) should be able to keep a Puckle Gun firing at its maximum rate, though extra cylinders may be desirable to maintain flexibility between shot and canister. Explosive shell was not developed due to a lack of reliable detonator; if it was developed it would be B: 4, C: -1, Pen: Nil. If an effective shrapnel shell was developed, it would be B: 8, Dam: 2/1, Pen: 1-Nil.

[cawest]

something bigger than the latest round. MD-17

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-launch-33860/

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by cawest

something bigger than the latest round. MD-17

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-launch-33860/

They were still at it a decade later (with a designation change to get rid of the McDonnell-Douglas prefix):

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-bc-17-214156/

One reason it never really caught on is that it had 3/4 of the fuel consumption but only 1/2 the cargo capacity of a 747-400. Unless you absolutely needed the rough field capability, it was an economic stinker.

[mpipes]

Maybe, but loading cargo on a 747-400 is VERY time consuming compared to a C-17. A C-17 can be downloaded and uploaded with a full load of cargo, including rolling stock, in a bit more than three hours. A 747-400 will take at least twice as long and no rolling stock. Ground time cost money, so in the long run my bet is that a BC-17 will generate more revenue, because you can get more ton-mileage per day compared to a 747-400.

[cawest]

Originally Posted by mpipes

Maybe, but loading cargo on a 747-400 is VERY time consuming compared to a C-17. A C-17 can be downloaded and uploaded with a full load of cargo, including rolling stock, in a bit more than three hours. A 747-400 will take at least twice as long and no rolling stock. Ground time cost money, so in the long run my bet is that a BC-17 will generate more revenue, because you can get more ton-mileage per day compared to a 747-400.

that is why the an-124 has been working so hard with civilian cargos.

[Vespers War]

It's been far too long since a Best That Never Was, and I've been watching some of Ian's videos again while waiting for new C&Rsenal videos.

The Colt-Franklin is a historical oddity as a black powder bolt-action magazine-fed rifle. The magazine is a 9-round box mounted above and to the left of the receiver. And it is a box. A square box, with the rounds in a 3x3 grid and feeding in a serpentine pattern to a Krag-like loading tray on the left side of the chamber. There's no spring in the magazine; the shaking of the rifle's recoil is sufficient to feed rounds. It also has 9 small holes, 1 behind each of the cartridge slots, as an easy method of checking how many rounds are left in the magazine.

Chambered for .45-70 Government, 50 rifles were manufactured and were tested by both the Navy and Army in 1887. They were not accepted for service, but did pass all the tests they were subjected to and would make an interesting weapon either for a black powder enthusiast in the Twilight era or for a Space: 1889 campaign. I only have caliber, barrel length, and overall length for the rifle's physical characteristics, so weight is as-calculated in FF&S.

Colt Franklin Bolt-Action Rifle
Wt 5.35 kg, ROF BA, Dam 3, Pen Nil, Blk 9, Mag 9, Rcl 2, Rng 112

[StainlessSteelCynic]

For those wanting some visuals of the Colt-Franklin, check out the following from (no surprises here) Forgotten Weapons: -
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/col...45-70-in-1884/

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

An 18th-century best that never was is the infamous Puckle Gun...

I have that one on my site, under blackpowder rifles, but I had the impression more were built?

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have that one on my site, under blackpowder rifles, but I had the impression more were built?

It's likely there were at least three - the prototype and the two purchased by Montagu probably weren't the same guns. Two definitely exist today, as Boughton House and the Palace of Beaulieu each have an original. Boughton and Beaulieu were Montagu estates, so they're probably Montagu's two guns from the West Indies expedition. There are no records of any other sales. The Royal Armouries Museum at Leeds is alleged to have an original, but I can find no such claim by the Museum itself. Buckler's Hard has a replica, and there are other replicas that have been made as well. However, they definitely weren't built in large quantities by Puckle.

[pmulcahy11b]

Eeeeeeventually I'll do a Blackpowder Cannon page, and the Puckle Gun will be moved to there. Just don't hold your breath.

[Vespers War]

Another one that's closer to my main period of interest right now (i.e. the First World War) is the Grand Browning. Development was interrupted by the start of the war, but it's very close to being a slightly smaller M1911 chambered for a 9.65x23mm round, with an 8 round magazine. It's not exactly a scaled down Colt, but both were developed from the same Browning patents and drawings and the major differences are in the details (magazine design, grip retention, different sights, etc). Colt tried a very similar pistol in their 9.8x23mm M1910, which would have essentially the same stats as the Grand Browning.

FN Grand Browning (9.65x23mm)
Wt 1.0 kg, ROF SA, Dam 2, Pen 1-Nil, Blk 1, Mag 8, Rcl 4, Rng 21

And yes, as usual, there's a Forgotten Weapons episode for that.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have that one on my site, under blackpowder rifles, but I had the impression more were built?

I went back and re-examined your page, and we came up with very different specs (which I think is a good thing, since it gives people different options depending on how they feel about it). I like being able to compare my stats with yours, since trying to understand why they're different and how that affects gameplay (hopefully) makes me better at doing conversions.


We're close on damage (I have it at 7, yours is at 8).

Pen isn't as close (2-Nil vs. 2-3-4), but the World Tamer's Handbook tends to have low penetration for black powder weapons, which is what I'm following. I think part of that is that FF&S assumes hard jacketed bullets at higher tech levels and soft lead in the black powder era, so the bullets tend to deform more on hitting hard targets and not penetrate as well.

Bulk is slightly different (8 vs. 10), but probably not very relevant to a tripod-mounted weapon.

We're very different on range (90 for mine, 157 for yours). I think this is another artifact of me using WTH, since it's pretty short-ranged for black powder smoothbores.

Mass is very different between our write-ups. Working off other writers' write-ups, I guesstimated the total mass of the system at 50 kilos, 40 for the gun and 10 for the tripod, where your total mass is 11.22 kilos. That probably also explains why your SS recoil is much higher than mine (not that either are likely to matter, since both are capable of 1 shot in a round at most). I went heavier because an 11.22 kilo weight is about the same as an M1922 BAR. At that mass, someone will try to shoulder-fire one in a game, which I don't want.

I'm not sure I agree with the ROF 1/2. With 5 second rounds, that only gives 6 shots per minute instead of the 9 the gun was alleged to be capable of. For that one stat I prefer the solution I came up with, giving it one shot per round, a 9 round magazine, and a reload of 3 so that it takes 12 rounds (one minute) for a gunner to shoot the magazine and reload with a new cassette. It's consistent with Puckle's designs, which had various cassettes ranging in size from 6 to 11 shots (and the rebuilt/replica one that Ian looked at a few years ago had 9 shot cassettes).

The cartridge shot is from a report about one of the tests where it fired a round containing 16 musket balls.

The cassette weight is the last thing to touch on. Loaded cassettes should be relatively heavy. At 0.85kg unloaded and 0.92kg loaded, each shot would have to be less than 6 grams (since powder weight also needs to be part of that). A 32mm lead ball is 195 grams (194.6), and 11 of them would mass 2.14 kilograms without powder. Even if they were very undersized and only 30mm, 11 of them would mass 1.76 kilos. A 6 gram lead ball would be roughly 10mm.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I went back and re-examined your page, and we came up with very different specs...

What Tech Level are you working from? Blackpowder weapons I generally use 2-4 (for weapon and ammo) depending upon the historical period being simulated (pre-American Revolution 2, American Revolution-1840s 3, 1840s-post Civil War period 4).

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

What Tech Level are you working from? Blackpowder weapons I generally use 2-4 (for weapon and ammo) depending upon the historical period being simulated (pre-American Revolution 2, American Revolution-1840s 3, 1840s-post Civil War period 4).

I lost the original worksheet, but I think I used TL 3, based on the burst radius I got for the shell and hypothetical shrapnel. TL 2 would only have B:3 for shell instead of the B:4 that I have, and TL 4 shrapnel would be B:10 where I have B:8. Honestly, I'm wondering now if I did it as artillery and then backed into the Pen using muzzle energy and just screwed up the range calculation. Plugging in a 3.2 cm, 28 caliber gun for TL 3, I get 154m short range, which is much closer to your 157 than my 90, and all the damages match my write-up.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I lost the original worksheet, but I think I used TL 3, based on the burst radius I got for the shell and hypothetical shrapnel. TL 2 would only have B:3 for shell instead of the B:4 that I have, and TL 4 shrapnel would be B:10 where I have B:8. Honestly, I'm wondering now if I did it as artillery and then backed into the Pen using muzzle energy and just screwed up the range calculation. Plugging in a 3.2 cm, 28 caliber gun for TL 3, I get 154m short range, which is much closer to your 157 than my 90, and all the damages match my write-up.

That may be; I did it as a rifle. Plus, of course, I have some fudges, like all good GMs do

[cawest]

what about a homemade Hotchkiss 37mm gatling black powered cannon vs. APCs or a something like old moses vs m113. I could see them using darts or shells and not iron balls.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That may be; I did it as a rifle. Plus, of course, I have some fudges, like all good GMs do

I went with artillery because FF&S says the small arms calculations are only intended for calibers of 20mm or smaller, but I probably back-figured the Pen like a small arm because it was intended for anti-personnel use.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by cawest

what about a homemade Hotchkiss 37mm gatling black powered cannon vs. APCs or a something like old moses vs m113. I could see them using darts or shells and not iron balls.

There is a lot of kinetic energy in a fast moving heavy and solid iron ball. Modern armor isn't really made to deal with that kind of projectiles. And a "well placed" shot on the drive wheels would surely immobilize the vehicle.

Against soft armored targets, the iron ball would definitely do real damage.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by cawest

... something like old moses vs m113...

I just have to ask because the meaning of a word or phrase might be readily apparent in one country and completely meaningless in another, so, what is "old moses"?

[Legbreaker]

It's a civil war era cannon. Not sure if it's a 6 or 40 pounder. It's been on a few episodes of mythbusters.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Cheers,
I don't watch Mythbusters often enough to know all the things they do or gear they've used so "Old Moses" was completely unknown to me!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's a civil war era cannon. Not sure if it's a 6 or 40 pounder. It's been on a few episodes of mythbusters.

[Legbreaker]

Yeah. I tended to skip it myself when it was still on, but I did catch one episode where they'd mentioned it - enough to recognise the name given to the gun.
If I hadn't seen it, I'd have been as in the dark as you.

[Vespers War]

Old Moses is a 6-pdr, Model of 1841. It's a 9.3cm L/15.7 TL3 cannon. Short range is 135 meters. Shot is Dam 20, Pen 2/2/1/1, while shell is C:3 B:11 Pen: 2C. Canister has a burst radius of 68 meters.