4th ed T2K

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Believe me though, this is MUCH better than it was in earlier versions!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Played around the edges a bit and threw some lace on to pretty it up....

They've made significant changes from earlier versions, and then toned it down again, so now it's set in stone? I don't quite follow that line of reasoning.

Plus, this time, they're soliciting feedback from all of the KS backers, not just a select few. Might that have a little more weight than small group that got an exclusive sneak peek?

-

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

They've made significant changes from earlier versions, and then toned it down again, so now it's set in stone? I don't quite follow that line of reasoning.

Plus, this time, they're soliciting feedback from all of the KS backers, not just a select few. Might that have a little more weight than small group that got an exclusive sneak peek?-

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Believe me though, this is MUCH better than it was in earlier versions!

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

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[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

[mpipes]

I managed to look at the draft.

I am with Olefin on a lot of the criticisms. THE ART WORK IS AWSOME.....but....

The background does not look that bad to me. Very sparse on details, leaving to Referees to fill in the blanks. Not terrible, but not that great. A bit too Swedish centrist to my taste for PC generation. My biggest gripe is the complete ignoring of the Central European military. You need a bit of flavor for German, Danish, UK, Czech, and Slovak forces. Italy and Hungary would be a good idea as well. I much prefer the overall wider sweep of forces in the GDW versions. However, this may be planned for rectifying in later modules. At the very least, the background and character generation should include the afore mentioned militaries and a least some German and UK units mentioned (and maybe a few Pole, Slovak, and Czech units here and there). Also, who are the Soviet allies? None???

A lot of the rules look like crap to me with the entire underlying character attributes and skill ratings looking clunky not to mention weapon ratings and vehicle stats. Vehicle and weapons need to be expanded.

Say what you will about the GDW editions, but their attributes, skills, and rating are far more straightforward and intuitive. The rules need to stick to kilogram weights and meter weapon ranges, speeds, and movements.

UNFORGIVEABLE: The Swedish focus given the lack of anything on NATO or PACT forces/PCs etc. I understand why its there but really; exactly what are the chances of encountering Swedish Army troops (or equipment) in Central Europe versus any NATO or PACT forces (or any equipment)?? That just needs to be fixed.

ALSO MY EYES ARE BURNING!!!!
A RPD picture is shown for the PKM. That's like an entry for a lion and then showing a picture of a bobcat. I'm sorry, but that is just plain sloppy!!!

And the guys obviously don't know beans about hunting. You don't need to use a shotgun on grouse or any bird. It darn well makes things easier, but if you are good enough (and my uncle is) you can shoot grouse or ducks out of the sky with a rifle. On the other hand, they do know about grenade fishing; I tip my hat to that!!

<sigh>

[Lurken]

Soviets have zero allies.

Sweden has things vanishing. The entire government+parliament goes =POOOF= behind friendly lines when going somewhere else instead of their designated bunker shortly after the war begins.

An entire Mechanized division goes =POOF= in the woodland s of Småland one week after invasion. Zero traces of anyone from that division or anything from that division.

Gotland going =POOF=, as in no one knows what is going on there. Absolutely no one.

Also, Rainbow, my name is listed in the Playtesters. We were invited to give criticisms and suggestion. I can vet Leg, he was there too.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

If there aren't any changes to the v4 backstory, then I probably won't use it as is, but I like the way that you're looking at it, and that's probably how I'm going to look at it too.

Originally Posted by Olefin

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

Yes, but why would they listen to people ranting about "antifa Soviet fan-boys" either? Seriously?

I understand that you are frustrated that they didn't listen to you when you were a secret advisor or whatever (I'm really curious about that whole arrangement), but that doesn't mean that Tomas et al won't listen to the rest of us.

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[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

-

the sneak peek and the Alpha as far as the players manual as it pertains to the war, the background, the timeline are basically the same - it was leaked material and the minute I saw it I was like oh crap - and the so called denials that I got werent worth the electrons that were used

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now? All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

I also had a ton of comments with Tomas and Marc - and got flat out ignored by them and told that what was leaked wasnt the reality of what the game would be -
I have direct quotes that say basically said that what was leaked was totally inaccurate as to the timeline, background, war and campaign start situation - and then out comes the Alpha and it backs up the leaked material - and if anything its worse

and refs can ignore anything they like - but the war and timeline and background is canon if its not changed and would have to be used by anyone writing for the 4th edition - and frankly as stated before its a goat screw - and at this point I doubt Tomas will be listening to anyone even with them getting ripped a new one on FB, here and discord. After all he hasnt been listening to anyone so far.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

As someone who did see draft information, We did complain about the timeline and how pro-Soviet it was and got told that we were looking at "Outdated information" and that the finished project would not reflect "current politics in any way".

This is lies because President West is a warmongering Idiot who embodies multiple Leftist stereotypes of Republican Politicians.

As such I hope to get the game used as not to give them a dime for it.

[Silent Hunter UK]

How is West a warmonger? He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

Perhaps not. But he is the one who launched nukes on Soviet forces after USSR didn't nuke Israel after they nuked NUAR.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And let's not forget that the US government decides to invade Sweden for "reasons".
Invading a neutral country that was known to be pro-NATO seems a bit "warmongering"...quite a bit, really...

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

And let's not forget that the US government decides to invade Sweden for "reasons".
Invading a neutral country that was known to be pro-NATO seems a bit "warmongering"...quite a bit, really...

Yeah, I haven’t read the Alpha T2K stuff, but I have seen quotes and numerous summaries of the timeline. I, during college, wrote two term papers on the importance to the Northern Flank during the Cold War. While there were contingency plans to invade Sweden during the Second World War (usually as a counter to possible German occupation), there were no reasons at all to invade Sweden during the Cold War. It makes no sense politically or militarily. It would be exceedingly foolish to mount a war of aggression against a friendly neutral. I knew Sweden would be a gaming location, but I didn’t realize how shoehorned in it would be.

Also how on earth does post 1991 Soviet Union fight all of NATO, including France, plus the ex-Warsaw Pact nations while holding down the restive non-Russian Soviet Republics? The entire TL seems to be one big Mexican invasion.

I’m so glad I dropped out of the Kickstarter. I certainly don’t need yet another rule set for Twilight and all I would have been interested in would be a decent backstory. That appears to be a no show so it’s still V1 for me.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

And let's not forget that the US government decides to invade Sweden for "reasons".
Invading a neutral country that was known to be pro-NATO seems a bit "warmongering"...quite a bit, really...

I did suggest alternatives. Like using the reason I will in my book, or that the USSR just invades Gotland/Scania to either totally dominate the Baltic Sea, or flank around Denmark to force the Baltic open.