4th ed T2K

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This comment is kind of what I'm talking about. Fair or not, this point has been made, ad nauseum, here and elsewhere. How is repeating it constructive?

Hence my earlier comment about just letting FL crash and burn.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Hence my earlier comment about just letting FL crash and burn.

Again, what's the point (of this comment)? You said it once before. That's enough. Ad nauseum.

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[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Again, what's the point (of this comment)?

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its called constructive criticism and debate - which is what the board is for - and he has a point unfortunately - and he is not alone in his point - but I really dont want to see V4 crash and burn. Hopefully Tomas is going to listen to the rising tide of criticism and realize that its time to start listening to the fans who love this game with a passion and joy and deep abiding committment to it - the ones who kept it alive all these years when many other games would have disappeared entirely.

V4 could be and can be so much more - but he needs to swallow his pride and realize that Twilight 2000 was never just about basic survival - it was also a great military simulation game that gave us a bunch of fantastic modules where you didnt just have to survive but as a character actually make a difference in the world

go stop a madman in the Ukraine and Warsaw

take out a bunch of generals in a hotel in Iran and in the process maybe derail the Soviet plans in Iran for good

find a way to somehow keep your the forces in Kenya going on a shoe string and a prayer

Stop the last Boomer from turning what was left of the US into radioactive ruin

Or save two kids from a bunch of pirates using a replica of a 200 year old ship

That is Twilight 2000 as well - and someone needs to remind Tomas and Marc of that

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

its called constructive criticism and debate - which is what the board is for

Wait, now you're a defender of free speech?!? The following is NOT constructive criticism:

Originally Posted by Olefin

IT SUCKS

Originally Posted by Olefin

And a game that has a crappy half ass antifa/Soviet fan boy background where the US military and government act like complete morons and the Soviet Army is all conquering is the last thing I want to play

My suggestion - keep the mechanics, trash the entire campaign background, timeline, and war events including RESET and start over

Originally Posted by Olefin

Oh I havent yet begun to fight this abomination - and frankly I would agree with you on the Russian internet trolls - or Soviet fanboys

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sorry but that is utter BS -

Originally Posted by Olefin

Frankly this timeline and background is a goat screw.

Originally Posted by Olefin

- and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

Originally Posted by Olefin

In other words this atrocity of a V4 release is 100% NOT TWILIGHT 2000 as we knew it and loved it

These are all from different posts in this thread. No emphasis added. Those are your words, every quote arguably a violation of forum guidelines, definitely in spirit, if not in the letter.

Cease and desist or be banned.

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[Olefin]

Nothing that I posted tonight in any way violate the guidelines of this board. That is called listening to you Raellus and posting accordingly.

[Jason Weiser]

Gentlemen, in the interests of easing tensions and giving us all a chance to calm down, I propose strongly that we lock the thread for 24 hours.

[Raellus]

Unlocked.

It's totally acceptable to criticize v4, as long as the criticism is constructive (i.e. offers alternatives, solutions, fixes, etc.) and the tone of said is civil (i.e. no name-calling and insults). If those guidelines aren't followed, this thread will be relocked.

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[mpipes]

OK. I’ll bite and offer some constructive criticisms for FL.

1) Find someone that is actually knowledgeable about NATO and PACT/Soviet forces and doctrine and LISTEN to them. Don’t just sagely nod your collective heads and run off with ideas based on fantasies – some of which are patently offensive. You need your background to rest on solid realistic actions.

2) You can’t have NATO invading every neutral country you want. NATO acts as an alliance. Despite whatever internal biases you have, the US will not act unilaterally without at least some NATO support. Get over it and accept that is reality. If the US were to invade Sweden, there would be UK and Danish forces leading the way. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is the way things actually work in NATO. Don’t believe that, look at what happened in the invasion of Afghanistan and the Libyan intervention; the US may have led the way but NATO forces were right there. That is what an invasion of Sweden would look like – all of NATO - so get over it. The ONE exception would be the use of nukes on Russia to retaliate for its use of nukes on US troops. If that happens, then yes, the US will tell everyone else to either stand with the US, and they will, or the US will retaliate unilaterally. That means German and UK Tornados armed with B61s attacking Russian targets.

3) Forget the supercarrier in the Baltic. The USN won’t risk a Nimitz Class in the Baltic. If you want a major USN force in the Baltic, then use a Marine Expeditionary Brigade backed up by a battleship Surface Action Group with quite a few anti-sub and anti-air assets. You might put the Coral Sea in then as a carrier, as it is possible the USN might risk a carrier to mount a major amphibious op on Poland or one of the Baltic states. But FL’s scenario just never would happen. All the Nimitzs are going to be busy blowing away Soviet fleets (Northern, 5th Squadron, and Pacific). The Black Sea and Baltic fleets will be kept bottled up using mines and torn apart by land-based aviation.

4) Accept that after 6 months, there will be no Northern Banner fleet to invade the UK. The Soviets knew their fleets were dead from the start of any war with NATO by the end of the first year. The whole strategy was to support the submarines in their effort to break the maritime supply lines from the US. If they did not win quickly, then they were not going to win. If the war dragged on past 6 months, the surface units were toast. You want to mount a super Deppe raid to pull off units of the BAOR before the nukes fly, use an Airborne Division and know it is dead and maybe a Spetsnaz Brigade to raise hell in the countryside. Its not like British civilians own any guns after all. Make them pay with a terror campaign your Viking forefathers would envy. After a few torched towns and 10,000 massacred civilians, you’ll get something pulled back from the Polish front; guaranteed.

5) Give Russia an ally or two. Maybe the Ukraine and Belarus and Czech/Slovakia.

6) Put Sweden’s spec ops guys to work. Sweden had great special operations forces during the Cold War. Where are they?

7) You can’t have Russia bottled up in Sweden and Poland after 2+ years at war. Russia would negotiate a peace long before then if that were the case. The only way NATO will use nukes is if it is losing, and if Russia is bogged down in Poland and Sweden after 2 years, NATO decidedly is not losing. If anything in that case, then Soviet doctrine was to use tactical nukes first to support/force a decisive break through. NATO will not use nukes first unless Russian forces penetrate deeply into NATO and pushing forward (e.g. into Germany toward Denmark or France); i.e. NATO is losing.

8) This can’t be a regional war if you want to destroy civilization. So Russia has to be at war in Asia and/or the Persian Gulf. That means China, Japan, Iran, and whatever others you want to throw in the mix. So far, all your background presents is a war in Sweden and Poland and around Israel. Hate to disappoint you, BUT no one is going to start throwing nukes around over Sweden and Poland, because they simply are not important enough to either side, or even the UK, to go nuclear over.

9) Stop with the Israel bashing. Israel is not going to use nukes on anyone unless its survival is at stake. That part of the background, frankly, I find patently offensive as borderline anti-Semitic – something based in neo-Nazi fantasy. If you want nukes in that area of the world, you are going to have to make it Syria and Iraq going after Israel likely with Soviet help. That means Jordan, Egypt, and, yes, Saudi Arabia probably fighting on Israel’s side. You must understand that the LAST thing the Arabs in those three countries wanted to see was a Russia dominated government in their back yard, and they would not be keen on Saddam or Assad expanding their power either. Also, Turkey and Greece are either fighting as NATO allies or what exactly?

10) Your character generation rules have got to be a lot more diverse. You need ALL the European belligerents involved as PCs.

11) If you have France in NATO, then France is GOING to be present and playing a prominent role. 25% of France’s citizens nuked and the Force de Dissuasion sidelined? I don’t care what the civilian government says, EVERY nuke France owns is going someplace east. Don’t think for a second that France does not have the stomach for using nukes to retaliate for that level of carnage. As any Frenchman will tell you; France is Paris, and Paris is France. You destroy Paris; you die – period. The military will go rogue and either mutiny and launch or execute a coup and launch.

12) I’m not fan of the mechanics at all. There is a reason why D6 was abandoned in the 80s. I think you would be well served to go to a percentile system (rolled with 2xD20) or D20. Your combat system looks too coarse; maybe over simplified is an accurate way to say it. Weapon and armor ratings appear to be wildly off in a lot of cases. You should stick with tracking ammo also as well as fuel and food. The WHOLE POINT of the campaign is resource management. The PCs need to be at least somewhat concerned with where they are going to get fuel, water, food, and ammo from the start. This drives them to having to deal with the devils in the area. This is WWIII and these guys are behind the lines on their own with little real chance of making it. The PC need to be painfully aware and motivated by that reality. Otherwise, this is just playing modern soldier lite in the wild with ruined cities here and there. Also, stick with kilos for weights. There is just no point making things that abstract.