The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have to wonder if Boeing was asked by the USAF to come up with that particular idea?
With all the talk from the last few decades from the top brass of the air force of getting rid of the A-10 because they believe that fast moving fighter jets can do the CAS role, this proposal from Boeing seems to be a case of "Look, just look! Our sexy fast movers CAN do the ground support role!"

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I have to wonder if Boeing was asked by the USAF to come up with that particular idea?
With all the talk from the last few decades from the top brass of the air force of getting rid of the A-10 because they believe that fast moving fighter jets can do the CAS role, this proposal from Boeing seems to be a case of "Look, just look! Our sexy fast movers CAN do the ground support role!"

As a side topic, when they come up with a CAS aircraft that's as effective as an A-10, I'll be the first one to say, "Time to retire the Warthog." The simple fact is that they broke the mold with the Warthog and no one's come up with anything as good at CAS as an A-10.

[Vespers War]

During the Interwar Period, there was a lot of experimentation into what made a tank good. Walter Christie thought it was paper-thin armor and a lot of speed. His M1931 was adopted as the T3 Medium Tank and used for a few years before being retired as too difficult to use, too hard to maintain, and generally inadequate. In large part this was due to Christie's refusal to modify the tanks per the Army's wishes and the subsequent poor relationship leading to parts shortages. Some of the stats will be speculative due to a lack of information. Some information is doubled up because this was one of Christie's convertible tanks that could run on wheels or treads.

Christie T3 Medium Tank
Fire Control: 0
Armament: 37mm M1916, .30 M1919 (both in turret)
Ammo: 240x37mm, 1500x7.62mm
Fuel Type: G
Veh Wt: 10 tonnes
Crew: 2 (driver, commander/gunner)
Mnt: 5
Night Vision: None
(Tracked)
Tr Mov: 96/77
Com Mov: 19/15
(Wheeled)
Tr Mov: 128/26
Com Mov: 30/6
Fuel Cap: 340
Fuel Cons: 100
Config: Veh
Susp: T:2/W:2
HF: 5
HS: 3
HR: 3
TF: 4
TS: 4
TR: 4

37mm L/21 M1916
Rld: 1 Rng: 220
HE: C:1 B:7 Pen: Nil
KE: Dam: 8 Pen: 2/2/1/1

The armament is known, but the ammunition load is speculative. I gave it the same amount of 37mm ammunition as the Renault FT (the M1916 is the American version of the Puteaux SA 18) and assumed 6 belts for the coaxial machine gun. Reported speeds vary, so I picked from among them. Fuel capacity was given as 89 gallons (albeit from a non-authoratative source), which I converted and rounded, and the range was such that I estimated it could run for ~3.5 4-hour periods assuming maximum range was achieved at half of the top speed. The hull armor is based on data, while the turret armor is a guesstimate.

So, you end up with a fast tank that can be penetrated by heavy machine guns and has a pretty pathetic armament. It is fast, though, and its use of a 338-horsepower Liberty V-12 gives it a high power/weight ratio.

[shrike6]

[Vespers War]

It's me again, in this thread again. If you guessed that means something absurd, you're right! A few years ago, Ian posted a video about an early 20th-century French light punt gun, a rather large shotgun meant for commercial hunting of waterfowl. At .920" caliber and with a 48" barrel, it's a big gun, but a (relatively) modest black powder load and a weight of 14 lbs, 4 oz means it can be shoulder-fired. A cartridge with 216 grains of black powder and 8 ounces of shot is what Ian mentions the gun using, which I converted to 68 pellets of FF (the largest waterfowling shot) and a very roughly guesstimated 40mm long case. As far as I know, there was no slug round, but you know some player's going to want one for the hell of it, so I included its stats.

Darne Canardiere Portatif (23.4x40mm black powder shotgun)
Ammo: 23.4x40mm shell
Wt: 6.46 kg
Mag: 1 round, loaded individually

Slug: ROF SS, Dam 9, Pen 2-4-6, Blk 11, Mag 1i, SS 7, Rng 30
Shot close: ROF SS, Dam 51, Pen Nil, Blk 11, Mag 1i, SS 7, Rng 30
Shot med: ROF 5x13/1x3, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Blk 11, Mag 1i, SS 7, Rng 30

This is actually not as absurd as the gun could be - with the smallest shot for waterfowl, T, it would have roughly 102-103 pellets per cartridge and still have enough energy for each to be Dam 1, so at close range it would be Dam 68 and at medium range the ROF would be 5x20/1x3.

[Vespers War]

I've got another weapon Gun Jesus has done videos on that I don't think Paul's got on his website. It's a submachine gun, chambered for 9mm Parabellum, developed just after World War 2 to use surplus Sten magazines. So far, so conventional.

It's a simplified Sten. With a bullpup design. And a wood body. No foregrip. No semi-automatic fire. No trigger guard. No sights. Yes, it's the wacky and WTF-inducing Viper Mark I.

Because of the utterly bizarre firing method, I went with a range halfway between a bullpup and a pistol of otherwise identical configurations. The buttstock under the shoulder should give a more solid anchor than a pistol, but the lack of a handgrip for a third point of contact and the complete lack of sights make it less effective than a rifle. Also, this gun can only take Quick Shots, not Aimed Shots. It uses a shortened Sten magazine because the full-length magazine was unwieldy with this design, but as far as I know there's no physical reason it can't use the 32-round magazine.

Viper Mk.I (9x19mm Parabellum)
Wt 2.1 kg, ROF 5 (no SA), Dam 2, Pen 1-Nil, Blk 4, Mag 20, SS N/A, Brst 5, Rng 40

The Viper Mk.III is somewhat more conventional, with a metal body, normal buttstock, and sights. It also switched from a Sten magazine to an MP40 magazine. A push-through lever/button takes the gun from safe through semi-auto to automatic fire. It had screw-off barrels in 4.7", 6", and 7.5" lengths. The stats below are with the 7.5" barrel.

Viper Mk.III (9x19mm Parabellum)
Wt 2.21 kg, ROF 5, Dam 2, Pen 1-Nil, Blk 4, Mag 32, SS 2, Brst 5, Rng 60



ETA: I think these work particularly well as examples of things that might be produced during the fragmented years when isolated areas are trying to produce firearms for self defense, particularly the Mark I. What's essential (the receiver; the barrel; the trigger system) is simple but effective, and what's not essential (the shell; sights; safeties; selective fire) use non-strategic materials or are simply eliminated. It's almost a real-world equivalent of the M-16EZ, using spare parts to create a gun that's crude but better than nothing.

[shrike6]

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4492.html
https://tanknutdave.com/brazilian-eet4-ogum/

[cawest]

just found this and thought it would fit here. the key is production cost at less than 50 dollars. it would be good for truck crews or ship's crews kind of like M3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQK9JNsrq_8

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by cawest

just found this and thought it would fit here. the key is production cost at less than 50 dollars. it would be good for truck crews or ship's crews kind of like M3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQK9JNsrq_8

Got that -- though I don't remember where I put it. (I think Best Shotguns That Never Were.) However, the T2K cost is significantly more than $50.

[cawest]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Got that -- though I don't remember where I put it. (I think Best Shotguns That Never Were.) However, the T2K cost is significantly more than $50.

i think i am going to make it fire darts underwater. the russians have a pistol with 4 barrels (4.5mm) for underwater use.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by cawest

i think i am going to make it fire darts underwater. the russians have a pistol with 4 barrels (4.5mm) for underwater use.

The Russians also have a pair of amphibious longarms (they're smoothbore, so technically not rifles) - the 5.66x39mm APS and 5.45x39mm ASM-DT, plus the rifled amphibious bullpup 5.45x39mm ADS. Only the APS would be available in most T2K timelines, with the ASM-DT accepted for service in 2000 and the ADS in 2013.

[Brit]

Duxford Tanks. Chieftain Marksman. 17/06/2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CWeino-wu0

[Brit]

Some "never was" and / or Frankentanks here: 'Alternate AFVs for the '70s'. - https://www.alternatehistory.com/for...he-70s.424117/

Plus a M551 Sheridan Low Altitude Parachute drop from youtube (?) part way down the third page.