Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Raellus]

To clarify the OP, I was addressing the deployment of relatively large stocks of mothballed weaponry, not so much one-offs like museum collections. The main issue that I see with the latter is a lack of spare parts and expertise re operation, maintenance, and upkeep. If anyone would like to discuss museum exhibits returning to combat, here are a couple of threads that address that topic specifically:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....ht=littlefield

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....ht=littlefield

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[Olefin]

in the 90's the US had a lot of older M60 and M48 tanks still in storage as well as close to 500 M47 tanks in Italy in storage - they had spare parts and ammo and were ready to rock

the Soviets/Russians had close to a 1000 T-10A/M tanks in reserve still in 1996 as well as 1400 plus T-34 variants that were being used for driver training and could have been brought back

In both cases there (at least at first) would have been plenty of ammo and spare parts in stock - the question is how long would that last - the Soviets were still making ammo for the T-34 if I remember right until late in the 1980's

As for the M60 - there was a GAO report in the mid-90's about how enough ammo had been produced for the M60A2 that it could have kept the ones that were still in existence supplied with ammo for literally decades

[Raellus]

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks.

Originally Posted by Olefin

in the 90's the US had a lot of older M60 and M48 tanks still in storage as well as close to 500 M47 tanks in Italy in storage - they had spare parts and ammo and were ready to rock

Intriguing. Where did you learn about the M47s in Italy? And to clarify, those are US M47s, not Italian M47s, correct?

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[Olefin]

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

For Italy 1989 (which is basically the V1 situation)

Total tanks in inventory:
200 Leopard 1A1, 720 Leopard 1A2, 300 M60A1, 400+ M47;

2 Armoured Battalion with 34 M47 and one with 16 (they kept the 5-tanks platoons) for a total of 84; other in Carabinieri Mobile Battalions and as many as 300 in storage.

In the US section there is the following note

Tanks: 2374 M1 Abrams, 894 IPM1, 2100+ M1A1 (deliveries ongoing), 5328 M60A3, 2659 M60A1, as many as 1800 M48A5 , 1334 M551 Sheridan, 630 M47s (according to CFE records – appears to reflect fact that Italian vehicles used for decades were leased or temporary transfers that returned to US control when taken out of service)

Thus it appears that the M47 tanks in storage in Italy were leased/transfer tanks per the CFE records

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c...43e1f90595576d

The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - they’re almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

For Italy 1989 (which is basically the V1 situation)

Total tanks in inventory:
200 Leopard 1A1, 720 Leopard 1A2, 300 M60A1, 400+ M47;

2 Armoured Battalion with 34 M47 and one with 16 (they kept the 5-tanks platoons) for a total of 84; other in Carabinieri Mobile Battalions and as many as 300 in storage.

In the US section there is the following note

Tanks: 2374 M1 Abrams, 894 IPM1, 2100+ M1A1 (deliveries ongoing), 5328 M60A3, 2659 M60A1, as many as 1800 M48A5 , 1334 M551 Sheridan, 630 M47s (according to CFE records – appears to reflect fact that Italian vehicles used for decades were leased or temporary transfers that returned to US control when taken out of service)

Thus it appears that the M47 tanks in storage in Italy were leased/transfer tanks per the CFE records

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c...43e1f90595576d

The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - they’re almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.

Or beat me before I even post. LOL I knew it had to do with CFE anyways.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c...43e1f90595576d

["]The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - they’re almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.["]

I like the NATO OOB document that's on the internet, but it's not always completely accurate. My main problem is the lack of source documentation, but alas, in its core its 20+ years old, so it's history itself.

As per the IISS publication "The Military Balance (1990)", the US (p. 19) had as "MBT: some 15,440: 1,013 M-48A5, 2,659 M-60/M-60AI, 5,328 M-60A3, 6,440 M-I/M-IAI Abrams."

Italy had (p. 71) "MBT: 1,533: 313 M-47 (in store), 300 M-60A1, 920 Leopard (140 in store)."

For 1989 these numbers were (USA, p. 18) "MBT: sorne 15,992: l, III M-48A5, 3,487 M-60/M-60AI, 5,400 M-60A3, 5,994 M-I/M-IAI Abrams."

And (Italy, p. 68) "MBT: 1,720: 500 M-47 (incl200 in reserve), 300 M-60Al, 920 Leopard."

That contradicts the idea that by 1992 640 M47 would have been to be disposed of that previously were in any form of a ready state. Now, AP certainly was right about the disposal, but I cannot reconstruct how the numbers came to pass. Maybe these included tanks returned from allied nations under some leasing contracts.

It's not clear how many of these could have survived until 1995-1997, when tensions rose again and hostilities broke out respectively.

[shrike6]

Here's something that should be helpful for this thread.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/The_USA_H...V_Register.pdf

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks.



Intriguing. Where did you learn about the M47s in Italy? And to clarify, those are US M47s, not Italian M47s, correct?

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Olefin can reveal his source but I'm pretty sure that came to light as part of the CFE treaty. Some DRMO warehouse in Italy still had m47 tanks that were being counted towards the US total or something along those lines if I remember right.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

To clarify the OP, I was addressing the deployment of relatively large stocks of mothballed weaponry,

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Where does the US (or any other country, for that matter) keep their mothballed military vehicles? Is there some equivalent to AMARC?

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Where does the US (or any other country, for that matter) keep their mothballed military vehicles? Is there some equivalent to AMARC?

Its called Sierra Army Depot
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that we are talking all versions here

V1 doesnt have the CFE occur - its the old Cold War that never ends so the CFE never happens

V2.2 has the CFE occur I am pretty sure

as for V4 - I dont remember if the CFE is mentioned in the timeline

Thus the M-47 tank being available as a replacement tank for the US for later in the war really depends on what version you are playing and if the CFE occurred or not

Without it occurring a lot of older equipment is sitting in storage depots

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind that we are talking all versions here

V1 doesnt have the CFE occur - its the old Cold War that never ends so the CFE never happens

V2.2 has the CFE occur I am pretty sure

as for V4 - I dont remember if the CFE is mentioned in the timeline

Thus the M-47 tank being available as a replacement tank for the US for later in the war really depends on what version you are playing and if the CFE occurred or not

Without it occurring a lot of older equipment is sitting in storage depots

One thing that may not matter in a game, is crew skill. I was initially trained as a M1 tank crewman, but I was trained when we still had M60's in service. So there was some cross training, and many of the systems were the same. If I was put into a M47 I would for all intents and purposes be untrained. I could probably load the main gun, and maybe run the radio, but not likely I could gun, maybe drive (I did grow up on a farm and can drive stick up to and including tractor trailers) but without someone who knows the ins and outs of the tank, moving from one tank to another is not as simple as all that. There is a reason it takes 16 weeks to train a tank crewman. In full disclosure this is also one of my pet peeves with TW2000.

[Brit]

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections? Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / ? from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them?

Ditto: There must be a lot of Lee Enfield SMLEs about all over the world plus copies/ In fact a photo here of a "SMLE owned by Maoist rebels in Nepal, 2005".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2...93Enfield_Mk_I

Before the T2K period, but... https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/...atollahs-iran/ But probably not all thrown away / lost / scrapped...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Brit

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections? Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / ? from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them?

Good call. And I think we'd see the same thing with the Mosin-Nagant. The Soviets/Russians had huge stockpiles. IIRC, they only started to flood the civilian market here in the States (you could get one at a sporting goods store for $100) after the dissolution of the USSR, when the Russians were doing whatever they could to bring in hard currency from the west. That wouldn't have happened in the v1 or v4 T2kUs.

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