4e Mechanics & Rules Discussion

[Ursus Maior]

I concur with Tegyrius. I think not adding the apparently existing category of Battle Rilfes to the list of the Rifleman specialty (p. 50) is either an oversight in copy-editing or during finalization of the rules between alpha, beta and publication edition.

After checking the wording of alpha and beta rules, I realized that nothing had changed there during editing. So, I suppose it's a continuous error and adding the category of Battle Rifles was just forgotten. It just doesn't make sense for those rifles not to have a specialty that gives them +1. All other weapons get that opportunity.

Thus I'd read "Rifleman" to encompass all 'longarms', except hunting and sniper rifles. These use "Sniper".

[Raellus]

"Rifleman" and "Battle Rifle" both contain the same root word (rifle!), so I would rule yes.

I still haven't had a chance to play 4e, but I'm trying to get a grip on the rules in the hopes that, someday, I will. My next question is a follow-up on my earlier Crit question.

DAMAGE: If your attack succeeds, you hit your target and
inflict your weapon’s base damage rating on them. Each
extra [target icon] rolled will increase the damage by 1. Roll for a
random hit location and apply the effects of armor.

So, as I understand it, you roll two die per ranged attack, one for the PC's attribute, the other for their applied skill.

For the sake of example, and assuming no modifiers come into play, let's say the player/Ref rolls a six (one target icon) and a ten (two target icons). Since they rolled a six, they hit. Since there're TWO target icons on the other die, does that mean you add +2 to the damage?

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[unipus]

Correct. (unless they don't have the skill at all, in which case you only roll one die -- or if modifiers cause a die to be eliminated)

If they had rolled a miss on the first die, and a 10 on the second, that would still be two hits. The majority of small arms in the game have a crit rating one higher than their base damage, which makes either of these cases a critical hit. This is the main advantage that highly skilled shooters have - not only do they hit more often, but it tends to be more lethal when they do so.

This is also why ammo dice are so useful, despite a lot of people underestimating their usefulness in the system. The odds are only 16% per die, but when you're in a firefight against multiple opponents, being able to hit more than one at once, or just put one down with a critical right now, becomes super important -- not to mention the significant importance of suppression. A ROF 3 shot has a 42% chance of achieving that!

[Ursus Maior]

Unipus is right, the mechanic of ammo dice is extremely important. Also, I like the way they reflect the dynamics of a firefight, where soldiers try to shoot short bursts, but over the course of 10 seconds (1 combat round) might give off 5-10 bursts.

To me, using 3 ammo dice seems to be the optimum, adding three seperate chances of ~16.67 % to hit at least one additional target. The base damage will often be not the most important part, but you will confer 2 CUF rolls onto the enemy force. That results in two chances of morale failure, hence twice the chance to route the enemy in your turn.

Proper target allocation and concentration of fire is a critical point in this game. Whoever controls morale will be able to move more freely and go into close combat, where less penalties apply and targets loose cover and concealment to a flanking force.

That's exactly how firefights work, if current tactics are applied properly.

[unipus]

Yep. At a glance the system is a bit abstracted but in practice I saw immediately that it generates very believable results that emphasize fire and maneuver tactics. Whoever has fire superiority will generally maintain the initiative (in the true military sense -- I hate the way this word is traditionally used in the roleplaying game sense!) and the freedom to move, act, and win. Depending on how scarce ammo is, this leads to tough decisions about how much to shoot, which is good!

To me, using 3 ammo dice seems to be the optimum, adding three seperate chances of ~16.67 % to hit at least one additional target. The base damage will often be not the most important part, but you will confer 2 CUF rolls onto the enemy force. That results in two chances of morale failure, hence twice the chance to route the enemy in your turn.

I'm not sure if this is how you meant it, but I don't think you can ever force more than one CUF check on a target in a single attack (even if you choose to hit them multiple times). I think what you meant though is that you can use hits on ammo dice to split your hits among multiple targets in the same hex... in which case yes each target hit would face a CUF and potentially cause a cascade if they fail.

[Ursus Maior]

In reverse order for the sake of arguments.

Originally Posted by unipus

I'm not sure if this is how you meant it, but I don't think you can ever force more than one CUF check on a target in a single attack (even if you choose to hit them multiple times). I think what you meant though is that you can use hits on ammo dice to split your hits among multiple targets in the same hex... in which case yes each target hit would face a CUF and potentially cause a cascade if they fail.

Yes, one can only trigger one CUF per person per attack. But a hex is a big place and it's feasible to anticipate that more persons (to use the somewhat awkward term of the rules) of one side occupy the same hex than suffered a CUF roll. Or as the rules put it:

PANIC SPREADS: If you fail a CUF roll and get suppressed, all friendly fighters in the same hex as you must also immediately make CUF rolls to avoid suppression too. However, a single attack can only trigger one CUF roll for the same person, never several rolls. [PM p. 67]

Originally Posted by unipus

[...] Whoever has fire superiority will generally maintain the initiative (in the true military sense -- I hate the way this word is traditionally used in the roleplaying game sense!) and the freedom to move, act, and win. Depending on how scarce ammo is, this leads to tough decisions about how much to shoot, which is good!

D'accord to all three items: the intention of the rule, the critique on terminology and the consequences of the rules. Conflict should and indeed must generate decisions for role-playing games to work. And fighting conflicts should generate the starkest decisions to be made. It's quite literally about live and death for characters, son the consequences should carry on into the world after the action.

[Raellus]

So, with opposed skill checks and whatnot, is it essentially whoever has the most target icons showing on their dice wins?

Is there also some sort of outstanding success or failure mechanic if X more targets are showing than on the opponents' dice? I seem to recall seeing something about an outstanding success mechanic somewhere in the 4e rules but, of course, now I can't find it.

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