On this day 25 years ago (Commentary Thread)

[Homer]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Marineflieger. That's a new one on me. I put it in Bing and I'll definitely read about it later.

But that leaves a question, one that I'll probably find out about later when I do my reading. Germany has no aircraft carriers, so is the Marineflieger basically limited to helicopters? And in a Twilight 2000 timeline, why didn't they buy the AV-8 to operate off of some of the larger ships? (They do have amphibious assault ships, though these are also basically helicopter carriers.)

The late 80s/early 90s (and presumably T2K) Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in two wings focused on anti-shipping tasks with a secondary land attack capability; a patrol wing of Atlantic’s; a wing of shipboard and land based Lynx ASW/ASuW and Sea King ASuW; and a utility/SAR/special projects wing of Dorniers, Sea Kings, and Atlantics. The Bundesmarine operated a handful of LCMs of the Barbe class, but nothing to take the weight or support the logistics of a Harrier. FWIW, the bundesmarine’s envisioned main areas of operation would under land based coverage.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

The late 80s/early 90s (and presumably T2K) Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in two wings focused on anti-shipping tasks with a secondary land attack capability; a patrol wing of Atlantic’s; a wing of shipboard and land based Lynx ASW/ASuW and Sea King ASuW; and a utility/SAR/special projects wing of Dorniers, Sea Kings, and Atlantics. The Bundesmarine operated a handful of LCMs of the Barbe class, but nothing to take the weight or support the logistics of a Harrier. FWIW, the bundesmarine’s envisioned main areas of operation would under land based coverage.

Exactly, couldn't summarize them any better myself!

[chico20854]

January 31, 1997

Greece declares war on Turkey and attacks Turkish forces in Thrace.

unofficially:

Colonel General Oleg Tulaev, Soviet defense attache in New Delhi, tells Commonwealth Defense Attache, UK Lieutenant General Sir Robert Owens that the USSR is willing to engage in the proposed dialog.

The Freedom-class cargo ship Michigan Freedom is delivered in Beaumont, TX and the South Carolina Freedom is delivered in Pascagoula, MS.

Commander Patrol Wings Pacific orders the deployment of Navy Reserve squadron VP-60, operating dated P-3B Orions, to deploy from its home station at NAS Glenview, Ill to the Cocos (Keeling) Islands Airport in the Indian Ocean, in response to increasing reports of Soviet raider activity in the Indian Ocean and to protect the anticipated deployment of troops and equipment to CENTCOM.

A patrol of 107th MRD's 660th Motor-Rifle Regiment clashes with Green Berets of the 10th SF Group. When the Soviet troops call in supporting T-86 tanks the Americans slip away into forested swampland.

TR-1 reconniassance aircraft loitering over the Inner-German Border detect the movement of tank transporters and trucks carrying 4th Guards Tank Army westward. CENTAF dispatches the deep strike aircraft that were mission ready (following the prior night's costly raids on the tank plants) to interdict the moving Soviet reinforcements. CINCEUR denies permission to use ATACMS deep-strike missiles against Polish territory, afraid (because there are conventional and nuclear variants of the missile in service in Europe) of provoking a Soviet nuclear response.

The hunt for the Kirov-class battlecruiser in the stormy North Atlantic is fruitless, with no sign of the ship.

A Soviet reconniassance satellite locates Convoy 112 in the Atlantic 750 miles northwest of the Azores. The Soviet Echo II-class SSGN (nuclear cruise missile submarine) K-35 fires a salvo of 8 P-1000/SS-N-12 missiles at the convoy from a range of over 200 miles. The escort's only ship equipped with area defense surface-to-air missiles, the frigate Talbot, intercepted two of the incoming missiles, and three of the remaining six missiles struck ships. The Coast Guard cutter Spencer and transports Cape Lobos and Seaboard Star were all struck, and the missiles' one-ton warheads sank the cutter and started fires on the transports, which ultimately were not able to be extinguished.

Turkish and Greek troops clash west of Limassol, Cyprus.

Soviet bombers change targets for the night's raids over the Balkans, switching to the explosives plant in Fagaras, Romania's only domestic source. The raid uses carefully route planning to avoid coming in range of the Patriot missiles and is spectacularly successful, detonating what was likely the largest non-nuclear explosion in the history of the Balkans.

The Romanian Ministry of Defense and the Israeli Defense Force sign a secret contract to purchase Israel's fleet of Tiran-5 tanks, which are T-55s captured during the Arab-Israeli wars, fitted with a NATO 105mm gun and otherwise modernized. Israel was in the process of retiring the tank from its reserve forces; the purchase was financed by US Foreign Security Assistance funds, authorized by the year-end appropriations act.

The German government requisitions the ro-ro ship Heralden upon delivery; the Finnish government protests on behalf of its owners despite the German government reimbursing the Finnish company the funds they had spent on the ship plus a 5% premium.

In the Yellow Sea, the carriers Abraham Lincoln and Constellation continue to fly close air support missions over the DMZ in Korea.

Pasdaran officials reach out to the IPA leadership, desperate for modern anti-tank weapons and air cover. They refuse to recognize the National Emergency Council's authority, however, so no such support is forthcoming.

[Homer]

Hmm… so is Advent Crown a product of Soviet recalcitrance, NATO overconfidence, or just coalition misunderstanding?

[Matt Wiser]

Could very well be all three.

[chico20854]

February 1, 1997

The final elements of the 7th Infantry Division (Light) arrive in Korea and are rushed to the front, under command of IX Corps.

Unofficially:

The 130th Tactical Airlift Squadron (West Virginia Air National Guard) is declared fully operational and begins deployment to Korea.

In Oakland, California the freighter Cape Byron is handed over to the US National Shipping Agency following its shipyard activation.

Naval aviators receive their first training against LSK (East German Air Force) MiG-29s attached to VF-43 at Oceana NAS and VF-126 at Miramar.

4th Guards Tank Army arrives in postions west of Świebodzin, Poland. Its artillery (down to regimental level) is ordered forward to reinforce 2nd Guards Tank Army. The forward movement is subjected to a hail of NATO interdiction fires.

On the Kola Peninsula, NATO resumes its offensive. The Canadian Special Service Force attacks northeast to isolate the Srednii Peninsula. The 10th Mountain Division attacks east out of Pechenga along the Kola Highway and the Norwegian 6th Division moves southeast to Titovka and the Koshka Yavr airfield. The US 6th Infantry Division's airborne battalion (the 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry) launches the first NATO parachute assault of the war, landing at dusk on the runway at Koshka Yavr. A fierce battle in the darkness ensues as American paratroops tangle with the airfield’s garrison of recovering Soviet paratroops, survivors of the 7th Guards Airborne Division.

photo
The aged Essex-class carrier Lexington is recommissioned in New Orleans, Louisiana and begins a short workup period with a scratch air wing culled from training squadrons along the Gulf Coast.

photo
A helicopter from a NATO Surface Action Group made up of of the US destroyers William V. Pratt and O'Bannon and the British frigate Cornwall sights the Soviet battlecruiser and, in a surprise, its escort, a single corvette. The task force breaks radio silence to report the sighting, prompting the Soviet force to immediately release a barrage of anti-surface missiles, with over-the-horizon guidance by one of Kirov's Ka-27 helicopters. The NATO group fires its Harpoon missiles, while Kirov downs the O'Bannon's SH-60 helicopter with a SA-N-6 missile. All three Allied ships are hit, and soon sink, while the battlecruiser's point defense missiles and guns shoot down the incoming Harpoons. The accompanying corvette is not targeted and is undamaged. Kirov and her escort depart the area, headed south at 30 knots.

photo
The Greek V Infantry Division lands at Paphos in western Cyprus, while Turkish troops secure Limassol. The area behind the front lines is a hotbed of civil conflict as armed gangs of Greek and Turkish civilians inflict atrocities on the other.

Greek troops of D Corps cross the Maritsa River in Thrace, facing Turkish Gendarmes and reserve infantry. Turkish commanders in Bulgaria are ordered to halt offensive action and dig in to their positons for "a temporary period".

The Turkish submarine Sakarya takes up station off the Bulgarian port of Varna in an attempt to interdict the flow of supplies to Bulgaria from the USSR.

Soviet bombers shift targets once again, launching their first raids against Jugoslavia. The night's effort is directed at suppressing the Jugoslav air defense force.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

Hmm… so is Advent Crown a product of Soviet recalcitrance, NATO overconfidence, or just coalition misunderstanding?

Both of the first two, plus a lot of pressure from Western political leaders and pandering to the Polish Government in Exile, who are clamoring for liberation (yet, as Stalin liked to ask, "how many divisions does the Pope have?"). Stay tuned!!!

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Homer

FWIW, the bundesmarine’s envisioned main areas of operation would under land based coverage.

Yes, mostly that was the case. Germany was responsible for guarding the North Sea and the Baltic Sea, both marginal seas immediately bordering Germany. Missions here were differed a bit, but were similar. Additionally, Germany participated in NATO's permanent Atlantic presence Standing Naval Force Atlantic (STANAVFORLANT), usually vexilating a frigate or destroyer to it. STANAVFORLANT was tasked with keeping the North Atlantic approaches to Europe free from hostile forces, largely meaning anti-submarine duty against Soviet subs hunting US convoys, which participated in REFORGER, the return of forces to Germany.

The Baltic Sea theater was a very special one for Germany, though. Germany was, together with Denmark, responsible for guarding the North Atlantic against a break-out of Soviet forces from the Baltic Sea. Denmark was the lead nation in this task, always commanding Allied Forces Baltic Approaches (BALTAP), but the Bundeswehr was the much larger army, committing most of the naval force to the task. All in all, Germany committed all 40 of it's missile fast-attack craft and its 24 submarines to the task, plus the aforementioned two wings of Tornado IDS.

These forces shut the Baltic Approaches, the Kattegat, close for the Soviet Navy, forcing the USSR to base most of its attack strength in Northern Russia. Also, the 30 NATO submarines (24 German and six Danish) were crewed by less than 1,000 men, but forced Warsaw Pact forces to build up a anti-submarine force of 15,000 personnel in the Baltic Sea, including 75 anti-submarine ships, mostly Soviet. BALTAP forces were also multi-purpose. In addition to blocking sea-lanes for Soviet ships to harass NATO convoys in the North Atlantic, they also safeguarded Jutland and the Danish islands against an invasion by the Warsaw Pact.

Additionally, Jutland could be used as a base for additional forces, mostly aircraft, to support the defense of Norway as well as harassing Warsaw Pact shipping and striking against targets as far as Leningrad and as close as East Germany and Poland. This would have made it more difficult for Warsaw Pact forces to mass forces in harbors for an invasion or guard important command and logistics sites against airstrikes: NATO could approach from mainland Europe into Pact airspace, as well as from the sea and, should Sweden have joined (which was very likely in case of a major war), from the North.