Best Way to Travel (Overland)

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

All I'll say is... spoken like somebody who has never meaningfully ridden a mountain bike.

You got me there.

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I'll post this video of a "Walmart special" being used on a downhill course to demonstrate the durability of a turn-of-the-century mountain bike (because the current "low tech" was state-of-the-art in the 90s). Keep in mind, that the abuse these bikes are taking is much greater than you would sustain just riding through the woods... BUT... since a soldier would be "laden" with equipment, the strain on the bike's suspension and rims (the weakest parts of a mountain bike) would be nearly the same as seeing this bike jumped.

The bike in question would have been priced between $500 and $1,000 in 2000. By comparison, my top-of-the-line PIVOT cost me $6,000 a few years ago. Yes, a high-end MTB costs as much as a Japanese dirt bike today.

Fair points all. I could see repurposed [for military use] mountain bikes featuring in a CONUS-based campaign, but would they have been widely available in Central Europe, pre-exchange? I don't imagine so.

A typical infantryman's battle gear and pack (w/ contents) weighs in at 50+ pounds. I would wager the average mountain biker doesn't carry nearly that much weight in clothing/equipment during a typical weekend afternoon trail ride. A decent quality mountain bike might be able to handle that much extra weight, but how well is the rider going to be able to control, maneuver, and/or propel said bike, especially cross-country?

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[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

You got me there.



Fair points all. I could see repurposed [for military use] mountain bikes featuring in a CONUS-based campaign, but would they have been widely available in Central Europe, pre-exchange? I don't imagine so.

A typical infantryman's battle gear and pack (w/ contents) weighs in at 50+ pounds. I would wager the average mountain biker doesn't carry nearly that much weight in clothing/equipment during a typical weekend afternoon trail ride. A decent quality mountain bike might be able to handle that much extra weight, but how well is the rider going to be able to control, maneuver, and/or propel said bike, especially cross-country?

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Yes, mountain bikes were widely available in Europe in the late 90s. Hans Rey (of Germany) was one of the pioneers of mountain biking and was riding PROFESSIONALLY for GT bikes in 1987. The MBT "world cups" were already being held in the 90s. You would also have CYCLOCROSS bikes (which were big in Europe) which are road bikes beefed up for offroad riding.

As for military operations on mountain bikes, you'd need to ask the Finns. as far as I know, Finland had her ski troops riding bikes in the summer since the 90s. They were a functional part of finland's TO&E.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Yes, mountain bikes were widely available in Europe in the late 90s. Hans Rey (of Germany) was one of the pioneers of mountain biking and was riding PROFESSIONALLY for GT bikes in 1987. The MBT "world cups" were already being held in the 90s. You would also have CYCLOCROSS bikes (which were big in Europe) which are road bikes beefed up for offroad riding.

As for military operations on mountain bikes, you'd need to ask the Finns. as far as I know, Finland had her ski troops riding bikes in the summer since the 90s. They were a functional part of finland's TO&E.

Good to know. Thanks. I guess one would probably see some bike-mounted NATO units, at least, late in the Twilight War (but I'm still not convinced that mountain bikes would make good cross country vehicles for heavily-laden soldiers).

I imagine that mountain bikes were much less common in Warsaw Pact nations. IIRC, the Germans made extensive use of bicycles- especially in Volksgrenadier and Volksturm units- in the last year or so of WW2, but the Soviets did not. Perhaps there's some sort of historical aversion at play.

I can't recall if it was explicitly included in the module or whether it was a detail I came up with myself (I'll check the book when I get home), but in my Pirates of the Vistula Campaign ("Twilight Cruise"), part of the Wilsa Krolowa river tug's cargo was an allotment of bicycles manufactured in Krakow.

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[chico20854]

A few thoughts... I haven't voted because I'm not sure where I fall.

I agree on the logistical burden and lack of awareness/channeling to avenues of approach that come with wheeled or tracked vehicles. But they do have the advantage of giving significant carrying capacity, which I think is of vital importance.

Simply, moving on foot really limits what you can carry. I'm sure many of us have gone backpacking; once you get beyond about a week's worth of food your pack gets too heavy to manage, and that's without a rifle, ammunition, grenades, night vision, radios, binos, a helmet, flak jacket etc. and with purpose-built backpacking gear. With heavier (and more durable) mil-spec gear the weight goes up and the amount of food you can transport goes down.

Medieval military leaders discovered the limitations of horses for strategic mobility... again, after a few days from home base the need to move fodder forward takes up all your horses' carrying capacity. Their solution was pillaging, which is an all-too T2k approach to things!

Here's an interesting piece about the Vietnamese use of bikes... they modified them to carry up to 200 kilos of supplies. I'm leaning this way, except to note that anyone pushing 200 kilos on a bike isn't going to have a whole lot of energy to leap into action at the first sign of enemy activity.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Medieval military leaders discovered the limitations of horses for strategic mobility... again, after a few days from home base the need to move fodder forward takes up all your horses' carrying capacity. Their solution was pillaging, which is an all-too T2k approach to things!

Just yesterday I found an article in Volume 21 of Infantry Journal that gave information on the state of transportation immediately post-WWI.

The escort wagon was pulled by four mules, and the rule of thumb was that a mule should not pull more than its weight on bad roads. Based on Quartermaster Corps specifications, 4 mules should weigh between 4,300 and 4,800 pounds, so that's the rough weight limit to work with. The wagon itself weighed 2,236 pounds with tool box and accessories. The estimated weight of the driver was 150 pounds and his equipment 67 pounds, and 2 days of grain for the mules was 72 pounds, for a total of 2,525 pounds. That left a potential cargo capacity of 1,775 to 2,275 pounds, or 2,025 pounds on average. Likewise, this also implies each mule needs 9 pounds of grain per day.

That's actually a fair bit less than British regulations called for in WW1, which was 12-14 pounds of corn for a draft mule (plus 10-16 pounds of chaff), but an article in the April 1910 Cornell Countryman agrees that a mule got 9 pounds of grain, a horse 12 pounds, and both got 14 pounds of hay. Your average wagon could then carry 225 mule-days or 168 horse-days of grain if that was its only cargo, plus the 8 mule-days already included in the load to supply the mules for 2 days.

In a 1912 test of trucks and wagons going from DC to Atlanta to Indianapolis, the mule-drawn wagons traveled no more than 20 miles per day. Averages were lower, and during WWI 10 miles was considered an attainable number for mule-drawn wagons to haul supplies given the road and weather variables they had to deal with. As long as one can graze the mules and find a steady supply of grain, a wagon can maintain slow but steady progress across the landscape at a walking speed of around 2.5 miles per hour. If the wagon has to carry its own fodder for multiple days, it quickly reduces how much it can haul, whether freight or fodder for mounted units.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

As for military operations on mountain bikes, you'd need to ask the Finns. as far as I know, Finland had her ski troops riding bikes in the summer since the 90s. They were a functional part of finland's TO&E.

Finnish army has been using bikes since 1920s.

Actually, we don’t have ski troops. Cross-country skiing is basic military skill and every soldier, sailor or airmen should master this skill.

There universal male conscription in Finland. When you’re 18 years old there is mandatory draft board meeting and they will inform what kind off skills you should have before entering military service. All conscripts should be fit and able to swim, ride bike and ski.

During basic training those who are unfit or unable to swim, ride bikes or ski are singled out and they will receive extra training. Needles to say that its not good if your sergeant thinks that you are “incompetent weakling” and this extra training is both PT and “attitude adjustment”.

Conscripts won’t receive basic training on how to ski or how to ride bike. Training emphasizes how to use skis or your bicycle in military context. This training includes bicycle marching and action drills to air raids and ambushes when you are skiing or riding bike.

Finnish military don’t use mountain bikes. Armed forces use military bikes that are rugged utility bicycles.

Since 1970s there have been two types units - motorized and static. Static units are usually some kind of logistic units, sea forts or force protection units. All units can use bikes and skis when needed.

[Raellus]

Thanks for that info, Trooper.

Here's a thread dedicated to Bicycle Infantry.

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....icycles&page=2

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