4e Mechanics & Rules Discussion

[Raellus]

Can PC groups be subdivided for separate Recon roles while attempting to sneak up on OFOR?

For example, a group of PCs are going to attempt a POW rescue. They want to get closer to the camp without being spotted. A couple of the PCs have Recon B. The others have C or D (or no score at all).

Could I split the groups- have the stealthier one approach the camp from the SW and the less stealthy one approach from the SE- and roll Group Recon separately? My gut says the answer is yes, but I don't want to play too fast and loose with the rules.

Is the above a legit application, or am I gaming the system?

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[Heffe]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Can PC groups be subdivided for separate Recon roles while attempting to sneak up on OFOR?

For example, a group of PCs are going to attempt a POW rescue. They want to get closer to the camp without being spotted. A couple of the PCs have Recon B. The others have C or D (or no score at all).

Could I split the groups- have the stealthier one approach the camp from the SW and the less stealthy one approach from the SE- and roll Group Recon separately? My gut says the answer is yes, but I don't want to play too fast and loose with the rules.

Is the above a legit application, or am I gaming the system?

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I don't recall anything in the rules against it, or even the rules mentioning a scenario like that. It makes sense to me. If I had a group of PCs that ended up splitting up into multiple groups when approaching a camp, I'd have each group roll independently.

Maybe it feels like gaming the system because knowledge of who is stealthier might be considered meta knowledge? But then, a group of people in real life would probably have an idea of who was able to move more quietly (e.g. who was clumsier, who walked louder, etc.).

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Heffe

Maybe it feels like gaming the system because knowledge of who is stealthier might be considered meta knowledge? But then, a group of people in real life would probably have an idea of who was able to move more quietly (e.g. who was clumsier, who walked louder, etc.).

That's a good point. In some cases, it would be obvious to the PC (the sniper and the former Ranger, for example, would know that they were relatively stealthy, and the mechanic probably realizes that she's not), but some characters might overestimate their stealthiness.

I suppose that even with guestimating, sub-groups would probably contain individuals with skill differences of only +1 or -1, which is pretty close. If one were to implement the Help rule, the difference would offset.

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[Raellus]

If I'm reading the rules right, the only way a Medical Aid roll can heal a wounded character is if the character is incapacitated or the wound was the result of a critical hit. I don't see anything about healing a wound that is neither incapacitating or critical. Is this correct?

Let's a say a character with 5HP takes 1HP damage. It's not a crit, and it's not incapacitating. Can a successful Medical Aid roll heal that damage?

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[Heffe]

Originally Posted by Raellus

If I'm reading the rules right, the only way a Medical Aid roll can heal a wounded character is if the character is incapacitated or the wound was the result of a critical hit. I don't see anything about healing a wound that is neither incapacitating or critical. Is this correct?

Let's a say a character with 5HP takes 1HP damage. It's not a crit, and it's not incapacitating. Can a successful Medical Aid roll heal that damage?

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That's my read of the rules as well from pg 73.

FURTHER RECOVERY
"Once back on your feet, you will heal 1 point of remaining damage for
each full shift spent resting or sleeping (page 148). This assumes that
you are not starving, dehydrated, or hypothermic (page 78). You can
heal damage and stress at the same time."

One other piece to note though that I think might get overlooked, is infection. From the same page:

INFECTED WOUNDS
"If you suffer 1 point of damage or more from an external attack, you
risk infection. Unless you are treated with a MEDICAL AID roll within a
shift after taking damage, you must make an infection roll (page 81) to
resist falling ill. Antibiotics give a +3 modifier to the roll. You can treat
yourself, as long as you’re not incapacitated."

Infections can get pretty nasty pretty quickly, especially for characters that are already low on HP. A failed roll or two is often enough to put them over the line.

FL I think tried to lean toward the simplicity in other TTRPGs when it comes to wounds. Nothing in the rules really talks about things like the use of first aid kits, the importance of (clean) bandages, etc., when talking about taking wounds. Even for really beefy characters, unless they get incapacitated or critted, they'll typically heal to normal within a few shifts. This brings it more in line with games like D&D, where a character can go from death's door to completely fine within 8 hours. Something's lost in terms of realism there for sure, but it seems like it's a known trade off to keep PCs moving.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Heffe

One other piece to note though that I think might get overlooked, is infection.

Infections can get pretty nasty pretty quickly, especially for characters that are already low on HP. A failed roll or two is often enough to put them over the line.

Great point (and a rule that I'd accidentally overlooked). So, even though it looks like successful application of Medical Aid doesn't result in a non-incapacitated, non-critically injured PC recovering any HP, it doesn't prevent the potentially incapacitating (or even deadly) knock-on effects of infection.
Worth it!

Originally Posted by Heffe

FL I think tried to lean toward the simplicity in other TTRPGs when it comes to wounds. Nothing in the rules really talks about things like the use of first aid kits, the importance of (clean) bandages, etc., when talking about taking wounds. Even for really beefy characters, unless they get incapacitated or critted, they'll typically heal to normal within a few shifts. This brings it more in line with games like D&D, where a character can go from death's door to completely fine within 8 hours. Something's lost in terms of realism there for sure, but it seems like it's a known trade off to keep PCs moving.

Agreed. I don't have a big problem with this. Recovering from a bullet wound after a day or two of rest isn't realistic, but it's no fun when your PC can't do anything for a full game session (or several), just to keep it "real". It is, after all a game, and games should be fun.

The way I play this rapid healing off IG is that wounds resulting in 1-2 HP reductions are grazes (or bruised ribs [torso], or concussion [head]). Fortunately, my PCs haven't sustained any incapacitating or critical wounds yet (knock on wood!).

If you're at curious about where most of my recent 4e rules questions are coming from, take a gander at my solo campaign log-ette.

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6793

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[Heffe]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Great point (and a rule that I'd accidentally overlooked). So, even though it looks like successful application of Medical Aid doesn't result in a non-incapacitated, non-critically injured PC recovering any HP, it doesn't prevent the potentially incapacitating (or even deadly) knock-on effects of infection.
Worth it!



Agreed. I don't have a big problem with this. Recovering from a bullet wound after a day or two of rest isn't realistic, but it's no fun when your PC can't do anything for a full game session (or several), just to keep it "real". It is, after all a game, and games should be fun.

The way I play this rapid healing off IG is that wounds resulting in 1-2 HP reductions are grazes (or bruised ribs [torso], or concussion [head]). Fortunately, my PCs haven't sustained any incapacitating or critical wounds yet (knock on wood!).

If you're at curious about where most of my recent 4e rules questions are coming from, take a gander at my solo campaign log-ette.

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6793

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I don't mind the fast healing either. It definitely doesn't feel as realistic, but it can sometimes make the game feel like a bit of an action/adventure movie, which I think is more fun given the setting. Characters get shot once or twice, but then before you know it they're back on their feet and in the fight.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Can PC groups be subdivided for separate Recon roles while attempting to sneak up on OFOR?

For example, a group of PCs are going to attempt a POW rescue. They want to get closer to the camp without being spotted. A couple of the PCs have Recon B. The others have C or D (or no score at all).

Could I split the groups- have the stealthier one approach the camp from the SW and the less stealthy one approach from the SE- and roll Group Recon separately? My gut says the answer is yes, but I don't want to play too fast and loose with the rules.

Is the above a legit application, or am I gaming the system?

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I think your doing it right.

Further, you will now have two groups rolling recon. And while one group has a high chance of success and another group a lower chance - overall the chances of someone being spotted has likely gone up due to needing to roll for two groups.

So not only do I think your doing it right, but even if you weren't i don't think your gaming the system because overall you have increased your chance of failure anyway!

[Raellus]

Allowing separate group Recon (i.e. stealth) rolls could also create interesting tactical situations in which the OPFOR detects one PC group but not another (or vice-versa).

I'm not sure how that would work with the Surprise/Initiative rules, though. Off the top of my head, an undetected group could move closer to its opposition while said is preoccupied with an another group.

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