Statting 4e Weapons & Vehicles

[Raellus]

MG3

Type: GPMG Ammo: 7.62x51 Reliability: 5 ROF: 4 Damage: 3 Crit: 4 Blast: – Range: 8 Mag: 100 Armor: 0 Weight: 3 Price: 1300

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[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

MG3

Type: GPMG Ammo: 7.62x51 Reliability: 5 ROF: 4 Damage: 3 Crit: 4 Blast: – Range: 8 Mag: 100 Armor: 0 Weight: 3 Price: 1300

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Hmm, I don't know about this one. Why would ROF be anything lower than a full 6, given that the MG3 still has a real ROF of 1,000-1,200 RPB? And, if I may add, 1,200 is closer.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

Hmm, I don't know about this one. Why would ROF be anything lower than a full 6, given that the MG3 still has a real ROF of 1,000-1,200 RPB? And, if I may add, 1,200 is closer.

That's a fair point. I could see bumping it to 5. However, I think the MG3's ROF should be comparable to other contemporary GPMGs, most of which have a similar ROF IRL. 6 seems a bit high. I would imagine that, due to the relative scarcity of ammo c.2000, that most operators would adjust the ROF down to a less profligate 800-95 rounds per minute (the MG3 does have an adjustable ROF IRL).

I don't have access to my rulebook, ATM, but which small arms are rated ROF 6?

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[Heffe]

Using only American weapons, the M16A1 and M4A1 both have an ROF of 6, as does the the M249. By contrast, the M2HB, the M240, and the M60 all have an ROF of 4 (though they all have lower cyclic rates IRL too).

One thing I'd note is that the M16A2 has an ROF of only 3, despite having a higher cyclic rate than the A1. It's seemingly explained away by stint of the M16A2 having a 3-round burst mode. This means that it may not only be cyclic rates being used to determine ROF.

Then again, it seems like most weapons that have a cyclic rate of 400-650 rnds/min get an ROF of 4. Weapons with a rate of 600-750 seem to get an ROF of 5 (see the AK-74), while weapons with ROFs that are 700+ seem to have an ROF of 6.

[Raellus]

Thanks, Heffe. IIRC, all of the comparable GPMGs in the rulebook have ROF 4. I think it would be reasonable to raise the MG3's ROF to 5, based on its higher cyclic rate IRL. However, I worry that raising it to 6 would make it OP, compared to other GPMGs in the rulebook. I'm looking at this from more of a game balancing POV, I suppose.

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[Tegyrius]

The cyclic rate to ROF conversion table is on p.110 of the referee's manual. It is oddly silent on the topic of weapons with burst but no full auto modes (possibly because this is not a widespread phenomenon). Based on its values, I would agree that ROF 6 makes sense for the MG3, and I would look at the cyclic rates of the MG with printed ROF 4 to see if they need to be tweaked to align with the table.

- C.

[Heffe]

I think 5 probably works as well from a balancing perspective. Since we already know that it's not only the cyclic rate that is taken into account when determining the ROF (as per the aforementioned M16A2), then we can find other reasons why the MG3 should only be 5 instead of the full six in order to justify the balance. Maybe PCs firing the MG3 have to worry about additional heat build up on it due to the higher firing rate, and therefore are trained to fire it in shorter bursts?

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Thanks, Heffe. IIRC, all of the comparable GPMGs in the rulebook have ROF 4. I think it would be reasonable to raise the MG3's ROF to 5, based on its higher cyclic rate IRL. However, I worry that raising it to 6 would make it OP, compared to other GPMGs in the rulebook. I'm looking at this from more of a game balancing POV, I suppose.

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One could always hold it's cyclic rate against it. First, those bullets are actually very close together. I sometimes released a short burst of 5-6 bullets, but found only 3 or 4 holes to cover up on the paper target. It took me some while to figure out that 3-4 very closely grouped holes could actually mean more bullets had hit the target with 2 bullets hitting the same spot. If you're burst is short enough, you might not get the chance to hit multiple targets with an MG3.

Second, firing longer bursts is a problem and 4E doesn't talk about the particular issue of the MG3 for obvious reasons. After 150 shots fired, you absolutely need to change the barrel. Shooting more than that in a short time, will overheat the barrel and can damage it. And no, you don't want to wait until the barrel changes color from bluish black to blue to orange. Those asbestos gloves won't protect you from everything!

Changing the barrel or keeping an eye out for its temperature will reduce the effective ROF of a weapon though. So, I could live with ROF 5 or even 4 maybe.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Heffe

Using only American weapons, the M16A1 and M4A1 both have an ROF of 6, as does the the M249. By contrast, the M2HB, the M240, and the M60 all have an ROF of 4 (though they all have lower cyclic rates IRL too).

One thing I'd note is that the M16A2 has an ROF of only 3, despite having a higher cyclic rate than the A1. It's seemingly explained away by stint of the M16A2 having a 3-round burst mode. This means that it may not only be cyclic rates being used to determine ROF.

Then again, it seems like most weapons that have a cyclic rate of 400-650 rnds/min get an ROF of 4. Weapons with a rate of 600-750 seem to get an ROF of 5 (see the AK-74), while weapons with ROFs that are 700+ seem to have an ROF of 6.

The M16A2 has a variant with full auto, these were purchased by law enforcement agencies and police departments. The burst version is the "R702" and the FA is the "R704" in Colt's designation system.

[Heffe]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

The M16A2 has a variant with full auto, these were purchased by law enforcement agencies and police departments. The burst version is the "R702" and the FA is the "R704" in Colt's designation system.

Thanks for the info - I was just going by what FL has in the official player manual. That does open up an interesting question though about houseruling for players ability to fire in excess of printed ROFs based on particular weapon models.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Heffe

Using only American weapons, the M16A1 and M4A1 both have an ROF of 6, as does the the M249. By contrast, the M2HB, the M240, and the M60 all have an ROF of 4 (though they all have lower cyclic rates IRL too).

One thing I'd note is that the M16A2 has an ROF of only 3, despite having a higher cyclic rate than the A1. It's seemingly explained away by stint of the M16A2 having a 3-round burst mode. This means that it may not only be cyclic rates being used to determine ROF.

Then again, it seems like most weapons that have a cyclic rate of 400-650 rnds/min get an ROF of 4. Weapons with a rate of 600-750 seem to get an ROF of 5 (see the AK-74), while weapons with ROFs that are 700+ seem to have an ROF of 6.

Your observations mirror mine and I think it would be easy to change the ROF using the following scale...

ROF of 4 = 400rpm to 600rpm
ROF of 5 = 601rpm to 800rpm
ROF of 6 = 801rpm to 1300rpm
ROF of 7 = 1300rpm to 3000rpm (example GAU 19)
ROF of 8 = 3001rpm to 6000rpm (example M134)
ROF of 9 = 60001rpm to 10,000rpm (example M214)
ROF of 10 = 10,000rpm+ (example Metalstorm)

This would allow the balancing of the machineguns to real-world specs. For example...

MG3 (1280rpm) = ROF 6
MAG 58 (750-800rpm)= ROF 5 or 6 (5 being more common)
M240 (700-750rpm) = ROF 5
VZ 59 (700rpm) = ROF 5
Ultimax (600rpm) = ROF 4
M60 (550rpm) = ROF 4
PK/PKM (650-700rpm) = ROF 5
RPK (600rpm) = ROF 4
RPD (650-750rpm) = ROF 4 or 5 (5 being more common)
M1919 (500rpm in non-1919A2) = ROF 4
M2HB (450rpm) = ROF 4
Bren (500rpm) = ROF 4
LSW (750rpm) = ROF 5
AA-52 (700rpm) = ROF 5
HK-21 (900rpm) = ROF 6
KPV (600rpm) = ROF 4

The rates seem to balance out among the guns.