OT: Putin's War in Ukraine

[Vespers War]

Avenger is a much less expensive upgrade than M4CZ, based on the allocated funds. Each Avenger is around $1 million to upgrade, while the M4CZ was around $5.2 million when the work was done almost 20 years ago (~$7.5-8 million in today's dollars), and they spent another $47 million a couple years ago replacing obsolete parts in the 30 tanks and 3 recovery vehicles. The outlay to upgrade the 90 T-72 to Avenger status would, as a very rough guess, be about enough to upgrade 12 tanks to T-72M4CZ.

[pmulcahy11b]

Avenger...that's a new one on me. New one to research...

[Ursus Maior]

@Vespers War
As you said, the M4CZ upgrade is around 20 years old, that alone makes prices incomparable, because of inflation on the one side and R&D on the other. What was terribly expansive in the early 2000s is now readily available. Also, if I remember correctly, the M4CZ upgrade included development of a new 125 mm APFSDS round, which would still be useful, but needs no money spent on R&D.

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Avenger...that's a new one on me. New one to research...

The Avenger upgrade is very similar to the early upgrade called "Scarab", also done by the company named "Excalibur Army". Avenger T-72s include 196 ERA tiles with an alleged equivalent of 400 mm RHA, modernized night vision for all crew, a new LRF, fully passive night vision without the need for active IR (probably just for the gunner), a thermal sight with a ballistic computer, periscopal optics with laser protection, a new 840 HP power pack, a new digital driver's cockpit, a new fire protection system and new internal and external communications, including an encrypted digital radio.

I also presume, the 12.7 mm NSVT machine gun in a remotely controlled weapon station, which the Scarab fields, would be present with the Avenger, too. Also, the ERA bricks on the turret are hidden under a clean metal bodywork, altering the appearance of the turret significantly. The turret rear and sides, directly adjacent to the frontal ERA protection, are covered with SLAT armor bars, giving at least some protection against handheld AT systems, such as the ubiquitous RPG-7.

So, it's completely refurbished on the inside, including a new power pack, but the main weapon system seems to remain pretty standard.

[Vespers War]

I'm currently unconvinced about the ERA protection amount. That 400mm RHA equivalent would be Kontakt-1 levels of protection. Scarab mounted DYNA, which is closer to 600-650mm RHA equivalent on a T-72M1 hull. They certainly could be using Kontakt-1 if Ukraine requested it for logistical reasons, but Ukraine already imports Kontakt-1 from STV Group in Czech Republic, so either ERA system would require importing replacement tiles.

[Ursus Maior]

Yes, I was surprised about the rather low number of 400 mm RHA. It just seems so little today.

[pmulcahy11b]

Here's an interesting look at WWII weapons in use in Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDd8NFftuXI

[Raellus]

Back in March, who would have predicted Ukrainian forces liberating Kherson?

Although I'm very happy for the UAF, I am doubtful that they can seize a sizeable bridgehead on the east bank. The Russians have spent the past few weeks digging in there, and any crossing attempt would be pounded by Russian artillery. This may be the high water mark of the Ukrainian counter-offensive in the region. Still...

Slava Ukraini!

-